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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Another oxy welding question..

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billOH

02-06-2006 08:48:46




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I've been practicing quite a bit lately, and I'm happy to report that I've actually made 4 successful welds now. I've only been practicing on small stuff (bolts, washers, bits of scrap steel, etc.) and so far I haven't used any donor steel or wire.

Here's my question: when is donor steel/wire necessary? As it is, I have a hard time getting the two pieces to puddle at the same time: adding a third piece to the mix would seem to make it even more difficult to create a solid weld.

Also, how close -- generally speaking -- should the torch be to the material? I've been holding it very close, with the neutral flame "core" almost touching the materials.


Thanks much...

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billOH

02-07-2006 13:50:56




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 Re: Another oxy welding question.. in reply to billOH, 02-06-2006 08:48:46  
Thanks for the tips, gentlemen! I'll be practicing again this weekend, and your tips should come in very handy.



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mj

02-07-2006 09:21:18




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 Re: Another oxy welding question.. in reply to billOH, 02-06-2006 08:48:46  
In the oxy-acetylene welding process the filler rod is kept just out of the puddle but VERY close to melting and is moved into the molten portion of the base metal in an intermittent action as the puddling of the base metal warrants. The rod melting into the moten edges of the pieces being joined both fills the gap and quenches the base meal as it is fed into the forming puddle. The pattern I use in moving the torch is horseshoe-shaped in the direction of travel with the open end of the shoe facing the filler rod.....rod in left hand, torch in the right, weld-bead progression to the left.

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mjbrown

02-07-2006 04:07:31




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 Re: Another oxy welding question.. in reply to billOH, 02-06-2006 08:48:46  
Lots of good advice below from some experienced people. Let me add that the distance you describe is about right and the torch should be angled about 45 degress with the flame pointing into the direction of travel and the filler rod in the other hand should be about 45 degrees toward the flame. On flat 1/8 stock the flame will make a keyhole shaped puddle. Touch the filler rod to the end of the key hole closest to the rod to fill and move along.

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MikeCatthemuseum

02-06-2006 12:08:00




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 Re: Another oxy welding question.. in reply to billOH, 02-06-2006 08:48:46  
"Simply heat your base metal just as you would for fusing two pieces together (molten puddle stage) and add the bronze into the weld pool."

NO, no, no. You only want to heat the base metal hot enough to melt the bronze. If you melt the base metal, you are too hot unless the base is also bronze or brass. Overheating is typically the problem when brazing while too cold is generally the problem with welding. Overheating will cause the bronze to contaminate the steel or, in the case of cast iron, will cause it to form brittle and hard cast iron. That is a guaranteed break, right at the edge of the joint.

Brazing and welding are two totally different operations and require different techniques, materials and skills. Brazing will require a flux or a flux coated rod. The bronze will melt at a temperature about 500 degrees less than the base metal. Brazing is more similar to electronic component soldering. You flux the joint, which chemically cleans the work and allows it to "tin", in which the bronze will flow out over a wide area, called "wetting". Once tinned, the braze can be built up to a thicker section.

Yes, torch distance is a form of heat control, but that movement range is limited to about 1/4". The weld area must be inside the flame envelope to prevent exposure to the atmosphere and contamination/oxidation. If you cannot control the torch within this range, change tips or crank up the gas. When brazing this is not such a consideration because the base metal will not be actually melted and the flux will maintain a proper atmosphere for the bronze. You can move the torch back a lot further in this situation to control the heat.

1/8" steel filler rod is normally used for welding .032 tubing or sheet with OA. Thinner rod requires too high a filler feed rate and can result in a thin weld section, a point of weakness. The rod is also an important heat control tool. Adding filler or just holding the rod over a hot spot will cool that area down.

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NcNE

02-06-2006 10:28:21




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 Re: Another oxy welding question.. in reply to billOH, 02-06-2006 08:48:46  
The need filler metal depends on a few circumstances. One of the more important, being the thickness of the base metal. Generally, the thinner the base metal the less filler you will have to use. Based upon my experience you can get by without using filler on steels 1/16" or thinner. On metal thicker than 1/16" the need for filler depends on the joint design and the type of filler you plan on using. This leads to the next thing to consider. Are you going to be using steel filler wire or bronze if you plan on using any at all. Each require a different technique. Generally using the bronze is easier to catch onto. Simply heat your base metal just as you would for fusing two pieces together (molten puddle stage) and add the bronze into the weld pool. It will melt and turn out looking like water on the surface so to speak. Then you can use your torch to manipulate the puddle and control the direction and size of the puddle. The second option is to use steel (or copper coated steel) This involves a bit more skill. Heat your base metal just as you would for fusing the metal as you would with fusing and dip as you need. There is a lot more to this process based upon joint design and etc. I will be happy to answer any more questions you have. As far as the distance from tip to work, it greatly depends on how much heat you wish to put to the base metal. If you are running too cold simply decrease the tip to work distance and the opposite goes for if you"re running too hot, but generally if you keep the very tip of the neutral flame very close to the puddle. If you"re really serious about doing some oxy weldind, I recommend reading a copy of the Victor welding and heating guide. It"s a small yellow book that is somewhere around 50 pages with lots of pictures and tons of good info. It generally runs around $2-3 and can sometimes be had for free especially if you go to trade shows. As I mentioned before, I"ll be glad to answer any further questions so feel free to shoot me an email.

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MikeCatthemuseum

02-06-2006 10:18:18




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 Re: Another oxy welding question.. in reply to billOH, 02-06-2006 08:48:46  
What you are doing is called fusion welding. This is often used in sheet metal structures like fuel tanks. A mating flange is turned up on both pieces and the flange is melted to seal the tank without adding filler. Fast and easy.

You are correct to get in close. Don't let the cone touch, but it is OK to get it close. The further away you are, the more the heat will spread out, and you will also have trouble getting enough heat to weld. If you are having trouble getting the material hot and keeping it hot, crank up the gas. If you are wide open with the torch set properly and the reccommended pressures on the regs, go up to the next larger tip. If the torch is popping and crackling excessively, go down a size and crank the gas up to increase velocity in the tip, which will prevent the backfiring.

Adding filler rod actually makes the two puddles unite easily. The filler will melt long before the parent metal. For practice work, use old coathangers as filler. Once you can weld with a coathanger, then go buy some good high quality copper coated mild steel welding rods and you will find it even easier.

When welding very thin walled material, turn up the acetylene just a tad (1 1/2 reducing flame, feather about half the length of the inner cone). This adds carbon to the outer layer of the metal and makes it melt just a touch easier. Helps keep from blowing through.. old aircraft welding trick.

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Richard H.

02-06-2006 10:17:47




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 Re: Another oxy welding question.. in reply to billOH, 02-06-2006 08:48:46  
Now that you have lap welds down Bill, lay a flat washer on your welding table and make the hole go away with a filler rod without it sticking to your welding table! Then flip it over and smooth out the other side. There are a lot of different fillers out there that you can use, it depends on what metals and the purpose is. The very tip of the flame is the hottest point. Richard



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