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Positive and Negative ground.

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Roger

02-17-2001 21:32:42




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Sorry if you have discussed this in a previous post, but I have not been able to find any information on this subject.

A friend of mine once told me that vehicles with a positive ground are less susceptible to rust than vehicles with a negative ground. Sounds kind of fishy to me, but there is enough pseudo-science to the argument that I just can't get it out of my mind, and, of course, it begs the question why we have negative ground vehicles if indeed it is true. The discussion was getting a bit too big-business conspiracy theory for me, so I just kept nodding my head. Any ideas?

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Jerry B

02-19-2001 08:20:59




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 Re: Positive and Negative ground. in reply to Roger, 02-17-2001 21:32:42  
Well I ain't no expert but I was told that the reason the change from positve ground to neagtive ground was made was to to try and keep the "uninformed" from putting a 12 volt battery where a 6 volt battery was supposed to go. They did that of course by using 2 different terminal and post sizes. Whether or not it prevented any disasters or not is anybody's guess.



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Ray,In

02-18-2001 19:32:47




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 Re: Positive and Negative ground. in reply to Roger, 02-17-2001 21:32:42  
Let me tell you a story, best I can remember. When I was in school, I took an electrical theory class to see if I was any good at that. Well, I wasn't.Anyway, If memory serve me, positive ground was supposed to prevent weakening of the frame. Electrons flow from neg. to pos. so that was the theory. This opinion and $1 will get you a coffee at the diner.After this was 41 yrs. ago.



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Al English

02-18-2001 11:47:10




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 Re: Positive and Negative ground. in reply to Roger, 02-17-2001 21:32:42  
I don't trust electricity. You can't see it and it is sneaky. There's no telling what it's going to do next. I'm not even sure electricity is real, but just in case I always put a piece of aluminum foil on my head before I put my hat on. You can never be too careful you know..... ..... Al English



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Wade

02-18-2001 13:06:41




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 Re: Re: Positive and Negative ground. in reply to Al English, 02-18-2001 11:47:10  
How thick is the foil? Wouldn't copper foil be better? And do you put the shiny side up or down?



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Al English

02-18-2001 14:13:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Positive and Negative ground. in reply to Wade, 02-18-2001 13:06:41  
Wade, I'm glad you pointed that out.....Could be I've been doing it wrong. This sounds like a good topic of debate for some of the astronauts on the N board...Al English



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Jim WI

02-19-2001 10:37:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Positive and Negative ground. in reply to Al English, 02-18-2001 14:13:56  
I've always heard that lead foil around the head worked best to protect you from the orbiting mind-control laser-satellites. Remember that you need to keep a ground wire in contact with the earth at all times!

Ran across a web page about this some time ago (sorry, lost the link).



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Wade

02-18-2001 10:37:38




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 Re: Positive and Negative ground. in reply to Roger, 02-17-2001 21:32:42  
Electronic rust prevention isn't the same thing as the polarity of the charging system on a vehicle. And I don't think that even sea air would be as corrosive as a salt mine. Points to ponder, while we're still bumping around in murkiness.



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Franz

02-18-2001 10:14:36




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 Re: Positive and Negative ground. in reply to Roger, 02-17-2001 21:32:42  
Well, I was just gettin into skinnin knuckles when the switch from positive to negative ground occurred, and what the old farts told me was negative ground provided for less erosion on the ignition points. It seems to make sense looking at it from the lifespan of points in vehicles that are negative ground, but then, points might have gotten better too.
As to electrical polarity and rust prevention, has to be pure bulls*^%$. There is some evidence for using electricity to prevent rust damage to things like bridges and parking structures, where rusting of rebar causes spalling of concrete. I've seen it done in Maryland, and it works. The corrosive atmousphere that would niormally cause rebar rusting is kept by atacking the rebar by an electric charge between the rebar and chickenwire an inch below the surphace. The same idea might work on a car, but I have a hard time figuring how you divide the body into 2 electrodes.

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Salmoneye

02-18-2001 06:40:18




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 Re: Positive and Negative ground. in reply to Roger, 02-17-2001 21:32:42  
There is actually some truth in this.
The companies that run heavy equipment in salt mines have systems that prevent the 'bleeding off' of metal due to static flow.

See the link below for a commercially available product that works on this principal.

There has been some dicussion on the Ford N Board about why this happens and why positive ground is 'better' than negative for rust prevention.
The reason that Negative ground is used in modern vehicles is that alternators have to be negatively grounded by nature. No such thing as a positive ground alternator...

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Jd790

02-20-2001 19:40:15




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 Re: Re: Positive and Negative ground. in reply to Salmoneye, 02-18-2001 06:40:18  
I have to dissagree till proven wrong on no pos. grnd. alternators.
I worked on a old dumptruck a "White" that had a pos ground system with a leece Neville alternator and a huge leece Neville mechanical regulator.
It would run and loose charge after 5 minutes.
Found a defective reglator with a constant draw
that heated the springs on the Alternator brushes to the point they were to weak to hold the brushes tight against the armeture. I only found this out after the third test on a bench! I told the guy to run it for about 5 minutes. She failed so he looked and replace the brushes. I pulled my hair out on this one and distictly remember most every detail.

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Jim WI

02-19-2001 10:30:44




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 Re: Re: Positive and Negative ground. in reply to Salmoneye, 02-18-2001 06:40:18  
Except that I've seen positive-ground Delco alternators in a catalog from a Minnesota company. If you've a Fleet & Farm near you, I bet you can find the same catalog hanging near the alternators.



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Salmoneye-I Stand Corrected...

02-19-2001 13:15:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Positive and Negative ground. in reply to Jim WI, 02-19-2001 10:30:44  
You are correct!!!
I should have said that there is ALMOST no such thing as a positive ground alternator.
There are positive ground alternators, but they are few and far between and have to be manufactaured that way in the first place.
They are unlike a generator that you can just reverse the wires on and repolarize. They have internal diodes (and some with transistors and internal regulators) that care very much what their direction of current is...

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Jim K

02-18-2001 07:50:41




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 Re: Re: Positive and Negative ground. in reply to Salmoneye, 02-18-2001 06:40:18  
Isn't J.C Witney one of the companys that sells repair gel. I'd like to see some hard evidence explaining the theory behind electronic rust prevention. or is the end result miniscule at best.



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Salmoneye

02-18-2001 09:44:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Positive and Negative ground. in reply to Jim K, 02-18-2001 07:50:41  
Repair Gel is the best!
Tastes great and is less filling!

However...
Electronic Rust Prevention Systems have been used for years in many industries.
I did an AltaVista search for 'Electronic Rust Prevention' and the link below is just one of the many that came up.
It has a fairly good description of the process in the 'Technical' section.
I have no idea if it is all BS or not, just that I have heard, and read about it for quite a while now.
I am also very familiar with the zinc fin on the lower unit of outboard motors. This is there for the sole purpose of being eaten away at by the action of the electrons bleeding off the boat into the water...that is what the zinc part comes out so you can replace it when it gets too eaten away...

Disclaimer: For informational purposes only...Objects in mirror are closer than they appear...Use only as directed...Freshest if eaten before date on carton...Driver does not carry cash...I aint got a dime in it...

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Wade

02-18-2001 00:43:51




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 Re: Positive and Negative ground. in reply to Roger, 02-17-2001 21:32:42  
Fascinating! But as I have some experience with British cars (Lucas, Prince of Darkness) and they're "Positive Earth" electric, I'll dismiss the theory. It seems that MG's rust as hard and fast as the rest of them. German cars rust with passion too and they're Negative ground.

Now when you get to boats it's a whole nuther matter. The electric charge created between the hull and water does some nasty stuff--to the boats that stay on the water 24/7. Sacrificial Zinc tabs are used to focus the current and thus the corrosion. This charge actually causes "blistering" in fiberglass. Exactly how, I can't explain but these blisters form down in the glass and fill with water. They're ground out when you do a bottom paint.

As for things on rubber tires, I'll vote conspiracy hogwash. I suppose we'll hear from the experts soon.

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luckydog

02-18-2001 06:44:09




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 Re: Re: Positive and Negative ground. in reply to Wade, 02-18-2001 00:43:51  
I know I'm not a rocket scientist, and will never claim to be. But in my mind the only difference between pos and neg ground is the change in polarity as is every thing is wired right. Like I said I might have stupid on my fore head but I might have a hard time buying into that conversation. Interesting about the boats, never heard that one before!! luckydog



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