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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Smoother Power

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DaveCA

01-12-2006 18:46:26




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I added this to the compressor post below but then thought some might have finished looking at the thread.
Here's my new thread.

I had a Delta Contractors Table Saw from the 70's, a nice heavy saw for a contractors type. It was annoying because of vibration and buzzing. I ran it that way for a couple years.
I never managed to stop it from vibrating despite trying all sorts of things.
That is until I connected it up for 220v. It smoothed it out and was quietertoo.
I thought it was because I doubled the power pulses per revolution. Don't you pick up another phase when taking another line?
If not why did it smooth out so much? the original 120v wiring wasn't undersized. Can someone s'plain that please?
Just trying to learn more.

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buickanddeere

01-14-2006 07:42:45




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 Re: Smoother Power in reply to DaveCA, 01-12-2006 18:46:26  
You had VD which requred current to be increased to maintain HP. Higher current and lower rpms increase vibration. Equipment rated for 120 or 240 will run identical on 120 or 240 IF the 120V wiring is properly oversized. So in the real world of undersized wires and too long wire runs. Swapping from 120V to 240 when using the same device on the same wiring will show notable improvements.



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DaveCA

01-14-2006 13:51:45




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 Re: Smoother Power in reply to buickanddeere, 01-14-2006 07:42:45  
Thanks B&D,
I"m usually right with you concerning electrical. The wiring was 12AWG and short run. The point I keep repeating is that I doubt anyone would oversize t5his circuit more than I did. So we are talking about theory vs real world.
I"m with "old" in this case, for the real world effects in this case.
I still think all you sparky"s are great, that there would be a lot more fires and shocks without you, well 99%, theres always one or two slobs. I have to play sparky too pretty often, and very carefully.

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MarkB_MI

01-15-2006 06:22:46




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 Re: Smoother Power in reply to DaveCA, 01-14-2006 13:51:45  
Dave,

There are a lot of things that contribute to voltage drop besides the wire between the panel and the saw. For example, there's a certain amount of resistance in the motor winding, and you're stuck with it. Connections, plugs and switches all add to this. When you switch to 240 from 120, voltage drop is instantly cut in half. But this effect is amplified, because the faster the motor turns, the less current it needs, which further improves the voltage drop. So on a heavily loaded motor, switching to 240 will have a much larger impact than you might think.

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buickanddeere

01-15-2006 10:57:44




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 Re: Smoother Power in reply to MarkB_MI, 01-15-2006 06:22:46  
We should make it clear that " the higher voltage" apllied to each 120V winding, the fatser the saw will run. This is true on a AC universal motor which is a series DC motor with a couple of minor design tweaks. Should the motor be an induction style. Rpms don't change appreciably until applied voltage drops to about 10% below nameplate when under full load. The 240 advanatge still reduces VD all the way from the motor to the service transformer. This is where we see "faster" startup even with properly sized wiring. So if you can possibly use 240V instead of 120V, do it. As previously stated it reduces the amount of mooching borrowers from your equipment.

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MarkB_MI

01-14-2006 04:59:43




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 Re: Smoother Power in reply to DaveCA, 01-12-2006 18:46:26  
If you had switched from single phase to three phase, then the power supplied to the motor would be smoother. That's because the phases are 120 degrees apart and overlap each other. The same is not true switching from 120 to 240. In this case, the phases are 180 degrees apart. What matters, vibration-wise, is the instantaneous power applied to the motor. With a three phase motor, the instantaneous power is nearly constant, so no vibration. With a single phase motor (120 or 240), the power varies from zero to peak 120 times per second.

I think the effect you were seeing is the result of less voltage drop in the wiring to your saw. All ac induction motors run slightly slower than their rated no-load speed. How much slower depends on the load and how much voltage is applied to them. On 120, your saw was probably slowing down enough under load to make the vibration more noticeable. Switching over to 240 would reduce the voltage drop, which in turn would make the motor turn faster under load.

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DaveCA

01-13-2006 14:27:21




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 Re: Smoother Power in reply to DaveCA, 01-12-2006 18:46:26  
I know there are plenty of woodworkers who have upgraded there hookups from 110 t 220v and noticed a smoothening of the machine. This saw was hooked up with care to stiffen up the power to it on 110V.
Is it possible that despite being OK as far as the NEC req V-drop, could it be that the sine wave gets distorted enough to cause a vibration even in this fairly stiff supply? Could it get distorted enough that your better than average "average reading" DMM would not report a sufficient V-drop to cause concern? Would a "true RMS reading" DMM show differntly in this type of circumstnce?
I get the feeling I"m asking a question that I knew the answer to before and forgot the answer. I use only "true RMS reading" DMM"s now having been convinced I needed one, especially at work, some decades ago.
I know "power factor" is something I should study again.

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old

01-12-2006 20:30:41




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 Re: Smoother Power in reply to DaveCA, 01-12-2006 18:46:26  
I know others will not believe this and maybe even argue about this but, With 220 it has more power, maybe 10% if even that much and on start up it spins up fast and runs smoother. I don't know if it because of a stronger magnetic field or what but I know on my dads old dewalt radial arm saw it sure did make a differance on how it ran and how it would cu much better and was a lot less likely to stall out if feed to fast.

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Ken Combs

01-13-2006 15:20:41




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 Re: Smoother Power in reply to old, 01-12-2006 20:30:41  
I think the answer may be that this particular motor has two different horsepower ratings. I know that delta used a 1.5HP/110v 2hp/220v motor on some contractor's saws. Check your motor label. If it is one of those, all the discussion of 110 vs 220 is for nothing.



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DaveCA

01-13-2006 05:49:01




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 Re: Smoother Power in reply to old, 01-12-2006 20:30:41  
Thanks old,
It was certainly harder to stall out after doubling the voltage.
Even though I had uprated erything beyond NEC req. for that use.



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old

01-13-2006 06:23:13




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 Re: Smoother Power in reply to DaveCA, 01-13-2006 05:49:01  
there is one problem when you talk about and or ask about as I call it ZAP-U-TRONs Eletcity a lot of it is theory and because we as humans only have a good guess as how it works people like to argue about it and then of course that can be problems. On paper and for that matter on meters etc. Wireing a motor up 110 and 220 uses the same amps and by theory the motor doesn't work any differant but and thes a big but. In reality something happens because as you said it has more power.

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Short Round

01-13-2006 07:10:06




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 Re: Smoother Power in reply to old, 01-13-2006 06:23:13  
In electricial theory it is generaly accepted that 746 watts equals one h.p. So if you take a one h.p. motor and wire it to run on 120 you will have 746/120 which will come to 6.2 amps. If you wire it to 240 volt you will have 746/240 which will be 3.1 amps. So this motor really doesnt care what the voltage is, just so it gets its 746 watts.

In this case the wire size could be number 12 or even number 14 if the motor was the only thing on the circut. But if you go with the 240 volt you would spend more for the two pole circut breaker.

So the question remains, "do your get more power from a motor at a higher voltage"? In theory no, but if someone held a gun to my head and I had to choose I think I would say that the higher voltage motor may work better. Like Old has said, the electrical thing is just a theory, it seems to be a working theory but a theory none the less.

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Gary Schafer

01-13-2006 08:46:44




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 Re: Smoother Power in reply to Short Round, 01-13-2006 07:10:06  
It is a theory but a true one! Your example of delivering a certain horse power is a good one.

If the voltage to the motor drops in the wire some amount then the motor must draw more current to compensate in order to deliver that same amount of horse power. That added current in the motor winding will result in more heat in the motor as well as in the wire supplying it. Lost power in heat.

However the difference between a 120 volt circuit and a 240 volt circuit with no voltage drop in the supply wire will result in a nearly equal amount of horse power delivered for a given amount of electrical power delivered to the motor.

But as I showed in the compressor thread, any resistance in the supply wire results in 4 times the wasted power in a 120 volt circuit verses a 240 volt circuit. The thing to look at is at what point does that lost power become significant.

Regards
Gary

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old

01-13-2006 07:18:55




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 Re: Smoother Power in reply to Short Round, 01-13-2006 07:10:06  
Yep theory, there still not sure it ZAP-U-TRON flow from + to - or if its - to + old theory was + to - new one is - to +. And with AC they can't figure if it works like a bumper to bumper crash or if it works like a plasing water flow.



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DaveCA

01-13-2006 13:01:08




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 Re: Smoother Power in reply to old, 01-13-2006 07:18:55  
Thanks to all who tried to "splain this phenominon. I wish I could remember what the rating on the motor was. It was the motor that came with the Delta 10" cast iron Contractors saw when new. I ran it from the service panel with over sized wire to 100A sub-panel, new 20A breaker, less than 15" total 12AWG wire from sub-panel, Leviton commercial grade receptacle, Hubble hospital grade plug. I use volt drop calc"s and wiring guides quite often. What theory is needed here? To try to disprove what is happening in actual reality? I"m definitely with old on this. To ell with theory in this instance! In reality this is as good as a hookup ever gets!
220v works better (for motor loads atleast) when 110 would be loaded anywhere near it"s capacity. Even then sometimes it may not matter, if your happy with it. I guess it really doesn"t even matter any more because 2 years ago I upgraded to a cabinet saw (Unisaw), 3 real honest-to-goodness HP on 220v.

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DaveCA

01-13-2006 13:10:27




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 Re: Smoother Power in reply to DaveCA, 01-13-2006 13:01:08  
I mis-typed "...less than 15" total wire lenght..."

I meant to type 15" (15 feet).



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DaveCA

01-13-2006 13:28:44




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 Re: Smoother Power in reply to DaveCA, 01-13-2006 13:10:27  
Whew!
The wire was less than five yards long - OK!
I remember now that the motor on the contractors saw read 2 HP on the name-plate.
Signed
older than dirt



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