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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Cisterns again

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Crem

01-11-2006 08:59:01




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My son just had a problem with his cistern filling from a deep well. There is a float in the cistern that turns the submersible pump on and off. This was installed by the former owner or a well person. He was away for a week and the pump kept running for a few days at 5 gpm, ran the cistern over, and made a mess. Besides that it probably wasn't the best for the well. I found that the cord for the float was damaged where it came out of the cistern and went to an electrical box. It had a burn spot in the cord and the two wires shorted together and caused the pump to run continuously. The float control is wired to break one side of the 240 volts that go to the controller. I don't know if that is proper to do this and only open one side of the 240 volts or if the float should control a relay to break both poles. Are there any thoughts on this and also on a way to shut it down if it runs for an excessive period. T_Bone, in the last cistern post you mentioned that you knew what controls to buy for this setup. Any ideas are welcome.

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Dave NE IA

01-12-2006 19:49:36




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 Re: Cisterns again in reply to Crem, 01-11-2006 08:59:01  
One of the simplest we have made for folks in our area is a milk jug tied to a 1/2inch rod that sticks up trough the lid of the cistern. A 3/4" pipe is cemented or calked into the cistern lid for stability of the 1/2 inch rod. The top of the rod is tied to a 30 amp box (the box is mounted upside down) with a small rope or cable tied to it. when the rod raises it pulls the switch off and when it drops it turns the pump on. This seems to be the most fool proof and at no cost. In our cold winters they usually smear some vasoline on the rod so it can not freeze where it comes up out of the cistern. some are over thirty five years and still working. The contactor things can be a big pain and troubles seems to always show it's ugly face at week ends or holidays, and days when winter is bearing down on us. Dave NE IA

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Crem

01-11-2006 21:34:39




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 Re: Cisterns again in reply to Crem, 01-11-2006 08:59:01  
I worked as a factory maintenance electrician before I retired, so when I saw this setup I questioned it. I called a couple of well places and they indicated that was the way that they hooked the float up. One of them said to be sure and not use the electrode system. Looking at this float and one on a sump pump in a basement and they both look the same to me. Both have a potential of 120 volts to ground. Also a lot of these floats are rated at 240 volts and say that they can can handle the motor current. I couldn't find anything out in the code book. That being said, I will probably build up a control box and use 24 volts to the float and maybe even add a second high limit float in series. I have some nice two pole relays with contact rating of 30 amps and 24 volt coils. I will then run conduit and sealtite from the building which is less than 10' away. I am in no real hurry as the cistern is full and my son won't return from his trip until this weekend.
I pasted the float switch information from the Zoeller site below.

PUMP UP to FILL TANK FLOAT SWITCHES The Pump Up to Fill Tank controls serve just the opposite function as described above and are used to turn a pump off when cistern or tank is full. We stock these in open end ( without plug ) for direct wiring purposes. Since there is no plug, they can be used for either 115 volt or 230 volt use. All come with 15' cord. These variable level float switches are mechanically activated and DO NOT CONTAIN MERCURY to avoid any environmentally sensitive concerns. #1002725 $ 38.25
No Mercury Junior Single Ball Float Switch Control, without plug for use with up to 13 amps maximum. Can be used for either 115 volt or 230 volt direct wiring.

#1003253 $ 52.75
No Mercury Super single Ball Float Switch Control, without plug for use with up to 15 amps maximum. Can be used for either 115 volt or 230 volt direct wiring.

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T_Bone

01-12-2006 05:39:17




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 Re: Cisterns again in reply to Crem, 01-11-2006 21:34:39  
Hi Crem,

Ya I can see why they guy suggested not to use the probe system as he wouldn't get to make any service calls. lol

We run 4 deep wells sites, 550ft to 1000ft, and tried the float controls that we changed out about every 3mths. We pump about 60000gal at each well site every month.

I swiched them all over too the Warrick controls and in 20yrs have yet to replace a Warrick. We do however have to clean the probes once every 3yr to 5yrs but that's simple. The probe wire access is located 3ft above ground level so all one has to do is remove the SLB cover to pull the probe for cleaning, twist a piece of scotchbrite around the SS probe end, reinstall.

The low voltage series circuit that you describe is a good control circuit.

T_Bone

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Crem

01-12-2006 07:40:51




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 Re: Cisterns again in reply to T_Bone, 01-12-2006 05:39:17  
Now you have me thinking about the Warrick control. Do you have any information on what controller to use? Do the sensors down in the cistern run at 24 volts? Another question is if the top sensor needs cleaning could the cistern possibly run over again. I looked online, but there is a lot of stuff out there.
I called our local supply and they said that they sell the float switch like we have and that they are hooked up just like this one was. They do not carry the Warrick brand but have the BMW brand. Maybe I misunderstood him because I couldn't find it online. Anyway the controller is $175 and the probes are $25 each which puts it out of the ballpark. I am still mulling over some kind of timer to limit the time the pump would run if something went wrong. It could then activate a light or alarm and have to be reset to run again.

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T_Bone

01-11-2006 17:17:34




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 Re: Cisterns again in reply to Crem, 01-11-2006 08:59:01  
Hi Crem,

Wow Crem, you never want to use line voltage for control circuits immersed in water. Your existing float control was installed wrong as it should have been wired to a isolation relay that controled the contactor. Your lucky no one has been killed by that install!!!

The best line voltage cistern level control that I've found is called a Warick control. This control uses line voltage to introduce magnetic sensing of the water level probes. Cost about $30.

The magnetic sensing isolates line voltage from ever entering the water. A very nice safety feature.

Probes:
The probes are 1/4" x 2" long SS rod. Three probes are required. One to sense high water level, One to sense low water level, One to complete the ground circuit located on the bottom of the tank.
Probes need to be cleaned about every 3yrs.

Probe Cable:
The probe cable is made from shielded R59 coax cable. Easy to get at any electronics supply, Radio Shack, etc; The cable has a center copper conductor that is soldered to the SS probes.

Warick Control Operation:
The water level drops to below the low level probe and this causes a magnetic field to latch the warick contacts closed thus completeing the line voltage relay contacts thus turning on the well pump.

When the water level rises above the high water level probe this cause the magnetic field to unlatch the Warick relay contacts thus shutting off the well pump.

T_Bone

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Bob

01-11-2006 17:32:01




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 Re: Cisterns again in reply to T_Bone, 01-11-2006 17:17:34  
Warrick controls work by passing a small electric current through the water. That is why the probes may need to be cleaned once in a while. The sensing function has NOTHING to do with "magnetism". (Although the Warrick control box DOES contain a "magnetic contactor", which us just a fancy name for "relay".)

For even more safety, an "INTRINSICALY SAFE" module can be installed between the Warrick control and the probes. This will limit voltage AND current to a very tiny level that cannot possibly hurt a human, or even light off an explosion, even in most classes of explosive gas surroundings.

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Bus Driver

01-11-2006 16:46:58




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 Re: Cisterns again in reply to Crem, 01-11-2006 08:59:01  
On 240 volt single phase, it is permissible for the controller to interrupt only one side of the line, so the original installation was per code. The already-suggested 24 volt contactor is a far safer control method. It will cost more.



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Bob

01-11-2006 14:33:07




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 Re: Cisterns again in reply to Crem, 01-11-2006 08:59:01  
Get a new float setup, and use the float to operate a contactor that will break both sides of the line.

If you want it even safer, get a contactor that uses a Class II 24 Volt circuit.



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Coloken

01-11-2006 11:05:47




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 Re: Cisterns again in reply to Crem, 01-11-2006 08:59:01  
While one wire disconect will work on most motors and not draw any current except leakage in the motor, its il-legal as Hexx. Not to mention the legal ness of the wire hookup over to the cistern. Be a lot better if it were a relay or at least a proper, water proof wireing.



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old

01-11-2006 09:12:39




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 Re: Cisterns again in reply to Crem, 01-11-2006 08:59:01  
On 240 it should always have shut off that brake both hot wire connections. If it doesn't it can draw current at all times and of course run up the electric bill, plus depending on the set up burn up a motor.



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