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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Hot water heater

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Snowman72bigdog

12-27-2005 10:18:23




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Does any one know how to wire a hot water heater elements so they both come on at the same time?
Do you have to buy a new bottom high temp thermostat for the bottom and disgard the original one?
Thanks




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Bob

12-27-2005 21:54:26




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to Snowman72bigdog, 12-27-2005 10:18:23  
I am using a 30 KW Hatco booster heater I bought for about $50.00 on ebay for a hot water heat project. (It was three-phase, and I re-connected it for single phase, with some elements not used, to get the BTU's I needed.)

They are designed to boost the temperature of already hot water to 180 degrees or so for sanitizing purposes for commercial dishwashers.

The Hatco heaters come in many sizes, and are often for sale cheap when a resturant kitchen is remodeled.

If you are subject to inspection, you probably couldn't use them, on a technicality, but the one I'm using is pressure test certified to 150 psi, has 4 built-in thermostats, and a low water cutoff.

MUCH more advanced, and more safety features than a typical "hot water heater", and CHEAP.

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ejr-IA.

12-27-2005 17:51:19




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to Snowman72bigdog, 12-27-2005 10:18:23  
I'm going to do the same thing in the near future a couple of questions.How many loops,what size of floor area,water pump size,and size of water heater?Thanks.



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Snowman72bigdog

12-28-2005 04:21:27




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to ejr-IA., 12-27-2005 17:51:19  
I have a 2500 square foot shop using a 50 gallon electric hot water heater 8- 300 foot runs two seprate zones one only has 2- 300 foot runs and the other has 6 - 300 foot runs using 2- taco 007-f5 cirulator pumps. Hope this helps.



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Gary Schafer

12-27-2005 17:36:20




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to Snowman72bigdog, 12-27-2005 10:18:23  
You should be able to just hook the second line up to the bottom element thermostat and leave the top element and thermostat connected to the existing line. Be sure to disconnect the wires between the top and bottom thermostat.

The top thermostat normally is on until the water at the top is hot enough then the top thermostat switches the top element off and sends the power to the bottom element. When the bottom of the tank is hot the bottom thermostat shuts the bottom element off.

When water is drawn from the tank the bottom thermostat will kick on first as new cold water comes into the bottom. As more hot water is used the cold water level will come up to the top. When the top thermostat senses cold water it switches the bottom element off and turns the top element on. The top element stays on until there is enough hot water at the top of the tank to turn it off and then the bottom comes on again as before.

The reason the top and bottom elements are swapped is so that a large amount of power is not required all at one time to heat the whole tank.

Heating the top of the tank first makes for a quicker recovery as only the upper part of the tanks water is heated. Less volume of water so it heats faster. The hot and cold water stay separated because the hot water always stays on top of the cold water.

If only small amounts of hot water are used at a time then the top element will not usually come on as the top thermostat will keep power sent to the bottom element and the bottom thermostat just turns the bottom element on and off. If the whole tank cools down too far then the top element comes into play for the fast heat up.

Also be sure your safety relief valve is working properly and your expansion tank is not waterlogged.

Regards
Gary

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Gary Schafer

12-27-2005 17:48:35




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to Gary Schafer, 12-27-2005 17:36:20  
A further note:
In wiring up the second element to work at the same time as the first be sure that the the thermostats were not wired so that both elements came on at the same time. If they were small elements they could be wired that way and you may only have one thermostat. In that case you would need to add a second thermostat. Most tanks work they way I was describing though. But check. Some tanks only have one element and one thermostat also.

You can usually tell by looking at the tank wattage. It may say, "upper 4500 watts", "lower 4500 watts", "total 4500 watts. That tells you there are two 4500 watt elements that are getting switched as I described. If the "total" is the sum of the two then they have only one thermostat and are not switched. If there is only one element it will show only "lower wattage" and will be the same as total.

Regards
Gary

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Chris Jones

12-27-2005 20:13:33




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to Gary Schafer, 12-27-2005 17:48:35  
I"m glad I stopped by tonight. I haven"t been here in so long. I was very puzzled by how the water heater I installed a year or so ago had a top and bottom wattage (the same) and a total wattage (also the same). I never could figure out why the total wasn"t a sum of the top and bottom. I"d really wondered how that heater would work on the amps that were being supplied to it. But it was the same as the old one so I put it in and had no problems. Now I understand why. Thanks so much!

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Glenn F.

12-27-2005 13:08:14




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to Snowman72bigdog, 12-27-2005 10:18:23  
I don't know if this the right time to toss out my question, but could someone please explain to me the principle of how a water heater operates? I understand how it heats up the tank of water and all, but how does it heat up partial tanks used...? Seldom does one use up the entire 40 gallons. I'm sure the answer has to do with heat rising but that's about as close as I can get to answering my question. Thanks, Glenn F.

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Ralph - Ohio

12-27-2005 15:36:02




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to Glenn F., 12-27-2005 13:08:14  
I'm no expert but here's my understanding of how it works. The top element in the water heater stays on until the water in the top of the tank is brought up to the temp. the thermostat is set for. Then the bottom element turns on and heats up the water in the bottom of the tank to it's temp. setting. Hot water is always taken from the top of the tank and cold water comes in at the bottom. Since hot water rises, if there is any heated water in the tank it will be at the top. When you take hot water from the top, cold water replaces the same amount at the bottom and eventually gets heated by the elements.

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RandyBee

12-27-2005 12:22:59




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to Snowman72bigdog, 12-27-2005 10:18:23  
Just a word of caution. If you are using a standard water heater as a closed heating system then remember that hot water expands and then turns to steam and you will have a serious explosion.



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Snowman72bigdog

12-27-2005 12:29:18




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to RandyBee, 12-27-2005 12:22:59  
Water heated to 120 degrees did not turn to steam but I do have a air trap and expansion tank installed on my closed loup system.

Thanks



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RandyBee

12-27-2005 14:07:14




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to Snowman72bigdog, 12-27-2005 12:29:18  
Not trying to scare you and well aware about 120 degree water but you are talking about adding elements to your system and what happens when that thermostat goes bad. Also in a closed system remember even 120 degree water has expansion and the reason code requires an expansion tank. You might read the link below. Not trying to be nasty but I was a home inspector and found some very serious problems and have seen the results of tanks blowing up and it aint a pretty picture.

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Ed Hotaling

12-27-2005 11:51:45




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to Snowman72bigdog, 12-27-2005 10:18:23  
Why ? If the elements draw over 3000 watts each, your 30 amp circuit won't safely carry the load. If you want faster recovery, put in higher wattage elements; they are available up to 6000 watts.



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Snowman72bigdog

12-27-2005 12:08:13




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to Ed Hotaling, 12-27-2005 11:51:45  
I guess I need to explain my self better. I am using this hot water heater for my floor heat in my shop. I did put in 6,000 watt heater and it is not keeping up. I am going to run two seprate 10ga 30amp lines to this for power. I was just wondering do I need to replace the bottom thermostat with one like the top one has?
Thanks



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buickanddeere

12-27-2005 18:36:43




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to Snowman72bigdog, 12-27-2005 12:08:13  
Illegeal in some areas and just dangerous. If you have two separate supplies to one machine and no warning. Someday some poor smuck is going to switch off a breaker and measure no voltage. He will then go ahead and work on the water heater and get bitten with the other live supply. Just run one 60 amp supply to the hot water heater. A hot water tank with switching elements can be messed up and only heat the top part of the tank. The bottom thermostat has to be set 5 to 10 dgrees warmer than the top thermostat.

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Jon Hagen

12-27-2005 19:13:00




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to buickanddeere, 12-27-2005 18:36:43  
Interesting to read B&D's comment about a second supply to a heater being dangerous,unless somehow marked or interlocked to turn off all breakers involved in powering the heater. I thought the same thing when this subject (water heater with both elements powered) was talked about on another site last night. I was supprised to find a high amp draw tankless water heater factory wiring diagram suggesting using 3 double 50 amp breakers to power the thing.
Check the link.
If I was to run a seperate power supply for the lower element in a two element heater,should it not also have a manual reset high temp switch installed down there as well in case the lower thermostat stuck ? Could be quite a bomb otherwise.

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buickanddeere

12-28-2005 16:14:32




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to Jon Hagen, 12-27-2005 19:13:00  
Excellent point on both heaters needing to be fed through the high temp cut-out. There is something to be said for spending a couple of more dollars and do the job right instead of having some 1/2 *ssed tinker project that is a safety hazard. Get get a larger hot water heater or install larger heater elements in the old heater.I never regreted spending less money in the long run by doing a project correctly. The 125A breaker for my electric furnace uses eight spaces in my FPE Stab-Loc breaker panel. Doesn't leave a lot of room the rest of the house with just 32 more spaces. And having to run extra rural loads like a well pump etc. Maybe time for one of those new 200A 60 breaker panels.

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buickanddeere

12-27-2005 18:36:20




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to Snowman72bigdog, 12-27-2005 12:08:13  
Illegeal in some areas and just dangerous. If you have two separate supplies to one machine and no warning. Someday some poor smuck is going to switch off a breaker and meaure no voltage. He will then go ahead and work on the water heater and get bitten with the other live supply. Just run one 60 amp supply to the hot water heater. A hot water tank with switching elements can be messed up and only heat the top part of the tank. The bottom thermostat has to be set 5 to 10 dgrees warmer than the top thermostat.

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Ed Hotaling

12-27-2005 12:48:03




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to Snowman72bigdog, 12-27-2005 12:08:13  
If you're going to do it that way, you have to put in another limit. But...even 12000 watts is only a little over 37,000 BTU/hr. No mater how you slice it, that is not a lot of heat for the size of most shops.



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Johnbob

12-27-2005 14:14:45




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to Ed Hotaling, 12-27-2005 12:48:03  
I put mine on two lines like you are wanting to do and it works fine.I don't remember how I wired it.But think I done it the way you are wanting to do.



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snowman72bigdog

12-28-2005 04:33:07




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to Johnbob, 12-27-2005 14:14:45  
This is what I did last night. I ran two seprate lines with two 30 amp breakers two service disconects at the hot water heater and labeled upper and lower element. Also installed a new lower thermostat with a high limit like the top.
I was reading my owners manual for the hot water heater and they do make hot water heater wired like this from the factory but no (big lot) store has these.



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buickanddeere

12-28-2005 20:56:46




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 Re: Hot water heater in reply to snowman72bigdog, 12-28-2005 04:33:07  
People ask me all the time why I don't do home, farm and small industry side jobs with my ticket. Finding and working around "farmer fixes" like a dual supply hot water heater and ending up liable is why.



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