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OT-Need help with electrical math

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marlinm51

12-16-2005 04:08:56




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I'm having a problem with my car not starting after sitting for 4-5 days because the battery will not turn it over. I used a multimeter to measure the battery drain at 210ma with the key off, the door shut, and all accessories off. When I pulled the fuse for the radio & clock the drain dropped to 12ma. Just disconnecting the radio drops the drain to 53ma. I don't know how to use these numbers to calculate how long the battery should sustain this current and still start the car. Is the 210ma drain on the battery enough to keep the car from starting after 4-5 days? I don't know the CCA of the battery, but it's fairly high because I live in Iowa. Car is a '93 Volvo 945t. Thanks for any help.

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JD9295

12-17-2005 04:47:23




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 Re: OT-Need help with electrical math in reply to marlinm51, 12-16-2005 04:08:56  
need to check and clean all your contacts, battery post, grounds, starter and solenoid



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Slowpoke

12-16-2005 16:18:42




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 Re: OT-Need help with electrical math in reply to marlinm51, 12-16-2005 04:08:56  
I had a starting problem with a '77 Dodge motor home with a 440 engine that had been sitting for more than year. With a temp around 65� I removed the old battery and tried several charged batteries from other vehicles, even using an additional one on the ground with jumpers. The engine turned over like the batteries were almost dead.... I removed the ground cable from the engine block and found slight rust. I managed to get an angle grinder with wire cup brush on the block and the cable terminal to get them nice and bright. I put dialectric grease on the block and terminal and then tightened it down. The engine now starts like it was new, on the first turn of the key. Poor engine grounds can cause a lot of problems.

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fepo

12-16-2005 12:20:07




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 Re: OT-Need help with electrical math in reply to marlinm51, 12-16-2005 04:08:56  
my brother is having a similar problem with his '97 V70. He's changed battery a few times, alternator as it seemed to not be charging to well and still has problems, it seems intermitent... still tryign to troubleshoot the problem. He did find that the cable attached to the battery terminal had lose connections, so be sure to look at that, undo all those connectors and scrape down the terminals very well, also at alternator and starter, you need those connections to be shinny new, even the grounds !, then tighten firmly and coat with dielectric grease liberaly. I believe he had a current reading close to what your getting, and as people have said the battery can go for days like that, so that is not the problem as his car is driven daily. Good luck.

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David - OR

12-16-2005 06:23:48




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 Re: OT-Need help with electrical math in reply to marlinm51, 12-16-2005 04:08:56  
A Volvo 940 uses a group 47 battery. A new, good quality group 47 battery has a reserve capacity (RC rating) of about 90 minutes (varies by manufacturer).

This means the battey can provide 25 amperes for 90 minutes and still have (just) enough energy to start the car.

The storage capacity of the battey is thus 37.5 amp-hours at a 25 amp discharge rate. It will be somewhat higher at lower currents due to the non-linearity of lead acid batteries; call it 40 amp-hours at most. Batteries lose capacity with age, and too many cycles of deep discharge / rapid recharge (as you have evidently been experiencing) will accelerate aging.

If the vehicle draws 210 milli-amps, then we can expect the battery to be drained in 40/.210 hours amp-hours /.210 amps, or 190 hours, or about 8 days. If the battery is original, or more than 4 years old, I would not be surprised to see only 4 to 5 days standby before the car won't start, especially in cold weather.

The normal guideline for acceptable parasitic battery drain (key off) is 125 ma max. Your 210 ma is way too high. 50 ma is more like what I would expect. Radios, clocks, and fuel injection computer parameter memory are the usual expected source of parasitic drain.

A common source of unexpected power drain is aftermarket accessories like alarm systems or poorly installed amplifiers. Also look for stuck relays -- have you disabled any accessories (like the horn) because they wouldn't shut off? A typical 12 volt relay draws 50 to 100 ma through the relay coil.

If you got the parasitic draw down to 53 ma, then you shoul d expect a new battery to start the car after about 40/.053 or 754 hours of idle time. Call it one month.

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Bob

12-16-2005 05:42:50




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 Re: OT-Need help with electrical math in reply to marlinm51, 12-16-2005 04:08:56  
I don't know what the maximum drain should be from your accessories, but how old is the battery, and have you tried another one? I would do that first. It's s dirty little secret of newer cars that they draw quite a bit of battery power when parked, and it takes a GOOD battery to keep up, and still start the car.

A couple of years ago, we had a car in the shop that was draining the battery much like yours. Pulling the radio fuse would fix it. We discovered there was a security system tied in with the radio, that was causing the draw. (The car was imported... Honda or Nissan, maybe.)

The radio and security system seemed to work as they were supposed to, but still drained too much power.

The owner was a high school kid, without a lot of money, and this was a factory radio, and since it was an older car, and this is not a high-crime area, his Dad suggested we put a little toggle switch in the radio's feed wire from the fuse, and he would shut it off when he parked the car. That solved the problem. I'm not sure if replacing the radio would have fixed it, but there was no money for that, and the switch got him by.

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RandyBee

12-16-2005 05:33:41




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 Re: OT-Need help with electrical math in reply to marlinm51, 12-16-2005 04:08:56  
The normal drain should be 25 MA or less. Your battery still may not be in top condition. The simple thing to try is leave the radio/clock disconnected for a few weeks since that is not a required item and see what happens.



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B. Jones

12-16-2005 04:35:29




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 Re: OT-Need help with electrical math in reply to marlinm51, 12-16-2005 04:08:56  
MA stands for Mili-amp which is 1/1000 of an amp. If you round off the 210 to 200 then 200/1000 is about 1/5 of an amp. Doing the math means you are using about 5 amps per day. That is a lot for a car that is not driven very much. Is the radio turned off for sure??? Modern computers use some current all the time, but I think you need to get the drain down to no more than 35 miliamps. Even then I would want to drive the car some at least once every 2 weeks. If I didn't drive it often then you should disconnect the battery. 210 is way to high , sometime is using power.

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BBx

12-16-2005 04:30:57




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 Re: OT-Need help with electrical math in reply to marlinm51, 12-16-2005 04:08:56  
The CCA (cold cranking amps) is a measure of how many amps the battery can deliver to the starter. It really tells you nothing about the total storage capacity of the battery. I am not sure it is possible to calculate what you want. You would have to know the amp/hour rating of the battery at full charge. Then you would have to know what the minimum charge would be required for the battery to turn the engine. Then you would have to calculate the difference between the full charge and the minimum charge. Then use that difference and the drain to calculate the time.

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jdemaris

12-16-2005 06:34:45




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 5-10 days in reply to BBx, 12-16-2005 04:30:57  
A high-end battery for a six-cylinder Volvo is usually rated at 700 CCA at zero degrees F. and 120 minutes reserve capacity at 80 degrees F. That reserve-capacity equates of maybe 60 minutes at -20F - also equal to maybe 25 amp-hours at the same -20F. So, take that battery at -20F with a steady 1/5 amp draw, and it will last 125 hours or a little over five days. At 80 degrees F, it will last twice that time - i.e. 10 days before the battery voltage drops to 10.5 volts. Keep in mind, the starter-motor is designed to crank at 9 volts. When the battery is aleady down to 10.5 volt no-load, the starter will be cranking at 6-7 volts which will be slow.

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