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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Need electrical advice about a floating neutral

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Georgia Ann Dav

11-02-2005 18:24:37




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I need some good sound electrical counseling about a generator that has a sticker on it saying it has a floating neutral. I am helping a friend with his generator that he is wanting to mount on a flat nosed 60 passenger diesel school bus that has been made in to a camper to go to NASCAR races. I converted the Coleman 5K generator from hand start to electric start. First off what does a floating neutral mean? Does the generator need to be grounded to the bus frame/body? Won't the bus need a ground strap like the gasoline trucks used to drag along the pavement? What effect will adding a hot wire from the bus battery,and a ground wire from the frame of the bus to use the starter on the generator, and then to the generator engine block have on the situation? Generator is on rubber cushion mounts in its own roll cage type frame. Will it cause problems to use the bus battery with the generator and let the alternator on the generator pump its' 3 amp charge into the bus battery to help keep it charged? We don't want to end up with this project letting all the electrical smoke out, or worse yet set up something to get someone electrocuted. Know there are lots of knowledgeable people on this subject, so please tell me the proper and safe way to do this if it can be done. Thanks; Gene Davis

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Gene Davis (Ga.)

11-04-2005 10:49:47




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 Re: Need electrical advice about a floating neut in reply to Georgia Ann Davis, 11-02-2005 18:24:37  
Thanks for all the information.. I gather from reading that when I connect the generator and the vehicle chassis together for the sake of using a common battery that it will not cause problems. I did not want to proceed till I got some definite information. Thanks lot for your time to give answers. Gene Davis



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RandyBee

11-04-2005 13:05:35




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 Re: Need electrical advice about a floating neut in reply to Gene Davis (Ga.), 11-04-2005 10:49:47  
Gene, No you will not have a problem and that is exactly why the floating neutral is what you need in this case.



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buickanddeere

11-04-2005 06:06:34




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 Re: Need electrical advice about a floating neut in reply to Georgia Ann Davis, 11-02-2005 18:24:37  
I'm looking through the code book as time allows. I can't get comfortable without referencing the neutral and therefore the 120/240 lines as well to chassis. When parked some sort of ground from chassis/neutral to true earth is a real good idea. Usually the law too. Generators are made with floating neutrals now so when they are connected through a hydro service emergency transfer switch. So a ground loop doesn't occur. The floating neutral generator will have it's neutral referenced to true earth through the bond in the transfer switch/service. When a floating neutral generator is used "stand alone" in the middle of nowhere. There is supposed to be a bond between the neutral and chassis. The chassis is supposed to be bonded to "true earth". However we all know how often that happens. If nothing else, feed everything though GFI breakers/receptacles. That way if there is a current path other than line to neutral the GFI will trip.

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RandyBee

11-04-2005 07:52:14




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 Re: Need electrical advice about a floating neut in reply to buickanddeere, 11-04-2005 06:06:34  
From the RV Site
120 VOLT AC ELECTRICITY

It's not my intention here to write a book on AC electricity, but to cover those aspects that are peculiar to RV use. "RV Electrical Systems" (mentioned above under Sources and References) is your must-have reference for all things AC. It goes into much greater (and well illustrated) detail. (I'm interested in covering those things that can drive U Nutz.)

First thing first: The neutral and ground in an RV electrical loadcenter are NOT to be bonded together.

The RV chassis is isolated from ground by definition. Metal leveling jacks and such, mounted on the vehicle frame do not make an adequate ground contact. Therefore, in an RV, you always want to have a "floating" neutral, where the neutral and vehicle ground never come together. When you bond the neutral and ground together in an RV, you
have a "floating" ground (rather than neutral) and this will result in nutty things happening.

Combined with ANY receptacle (at campground post or in RV) having reversed polarity, it may result in YOU becoming the path to ground in certain conditions (like standing on wet ground and touching metal vehicle parts). Usually you just feel a slight "tingle," but it can get serious. One result often seen is a dog, chained to a metal bumper, bouncing up and down.

The above electrical faults result in breakers breaking and Ground Fault Interrupters (GFI's) that don't GFI (and pity the poor drunk who stands alongside the RV, with his hand leaning on the metal frame, and takes aleak).

This shouldn't happen if there's no reverse polarity at ANY receptacle, because the ground wire is still grounded and does not become a hot wire by the fact that current of near-zero voltage is flowing in it. So, then, everything should still work OK and normal. The dog would still be happy right up to the time you drive off down the highway -- dragging
the whole affair -- dog and all. (I've seen this happen.)

However, the whole purpose of the third ground is to be a fail safe, so current is not allowed to (normally) flow in this wire. Having more than one grounding point CAN make this possible. (See later.)

RoVers can come on a bad electrical receptacle almost anywhere. Frequently in a camp ground, where the "electrician" is the guy who mows the grass and does other "high-tech" chores. They can also have one or more reverse-wired receptacles in their RV. (Factory RV wiring is not usually done by mental giants.)

One inverter manufacturer's manual has a note about disconnecting a certain "pin" so this "double ground" won't happen. One inverter manufacturer now makes a "Marine" (same as RV) Model to preclude this (and it's not supposed to be sold for use in a fixed residence).

50 Amp and 30 Amp Electricity to the RV

When the four wires from a 50 amp cable enter the RV, you have two "hots," a neutral and a ground. The wires then usually enter a dual "load center" (or two individual load centers). It's set up just like in a "house," EXCEPT the neutrals go to an insulated neutral bar. The ground wire goes to a separate "ground" bar.
While the neutrals are bonded together and common, the neutrals and ground wire are NOT bonded to the metal load center as a "common" (as is done in a house where there's an independent ground).

The neutral and ground are common only at one place -- the meter and load center bars on a "house" or the power receptacles in the "box" you plug into at a camp ground.

It's essential that the "neutrals" be floating (not connected to ground) throughout an RV.

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RandyBee

11-02-2005 19:33:09




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 Re: Need electrical advice about a floating neut in reply to Georgia Ann Davis, 11-02-2005 18:24:37  
Floating neutral means the neutral wire is not tied to ground. That is exactly what you want for a RV type installation. The RV should also be wired with floating neutral. This protects you in case someone reversed a power plug wiring to the RV and if the neutral was tied to the metal chassis - then the whole vehicle would be HOT and dangerous. So all the wiring in the vehicle should be floating - meaning no connection to ground of either the hot or neutral lead.

As far as battery to generator - should have no effect on the AC as long as you run negative to negative and positive to positive and assuming you have a negative ground on vehicle and generator.

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