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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors?

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Bob - MI

10-19-2005 06:18:17




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I recently decided to start a home based business as an independent sales representative. One company that has approached me is a start-up group that manufacturers a machine that will fill 4 tires at once with nitrogen. Premise is that the shop owner can do this while he is doing some other service and therefore increase his profit hourly.

While I understand the theory of why nitrogen is beneficial, do you think there will be enough folks that will pay $6.00 per tire for this to ever become a viable business? The machine will lease for less than $100.00/mo so the entry fee is low but I remain skeptical. Please note that I am not trying to sell this here, simply looking for opinions.

Thoughts?

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farmall 340

10-19-2005 20:45:32




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Bob - MI, 10-19-2005 06:18:17  
The idea that just adding nitrogen to your tires when you fill them is pointless. In order to do it and get the purity level that would be needed to see any benefits would require that after a tire is mounted and the bead seated a vacuum would have to be pulled similar to that of an AC system requires. Then fill with Nitrogen gas. I believe most shops that are pushing it are just topping your tires off with it.

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Leland

10-19-2005 18:48:07




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Bob - MI, 10-19-2005 06:18:17  
The only good think about N in tires is that it is not affected by temp's changing so unless you have a leak the pressure will stay at a even level unlike O2 that changes with the season and it is suppose to stop the tire from rotting on the inside I hear .



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GPWT

10-21-2005 09:35:53




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Leland, 10-19-2005 18:48:07  
Nitrogen DOES change with temperature, the same as any other gas. As temp goes up, so does pressure. The same physical law applies to all gases.

Unless the tires are not used often they will wear out long before they rot from the inside. Maybe N2 is, however, good for antique car and tractor tires.



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Leland

10-21-2005 14:07:27




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to GPWT, 10-21-2005 09:35:53  
I am just repeating what some full of BS salesman tried to sell me on the stuff .



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Kevin Bismark

10-19-2005 18:05:23




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Bob - MI, 10-19-2005 06:18:17  
I must have missed something, if the country is going downhill this fast maybe I will drive the old pre 55"s fords instead of just restoring them, a tire guage isin"t that hard to work, or is it????



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Bob - MI

10-19-2005 12:44:38




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Bob - MI, 10-19-2005 06:18:17  
Boy, I knew you guys would have some valuable input on this one. Lots of good ideas and comments. The tire pressure sensor came up in the discussion yesterday and it seems that they are all factory pre-set and not adjustable at all. The nitrogen guys (gas passers)were all over this one as something that they could help from becoming a problem.

Thanks again guys!



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Hobo,NC

10-19-2005 10:17:49




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Bob - MI, 10-19-2005 06:18:17  
Their will be a market fer it but in will be a few more years. 2007 all new cars & trucks sold under 10,000 lb. will have�ta have a tire pressure monitoring system. Its already here on the top of the line autos and I spec by 2007 the system will turn on lights if the tire pressure changes by only a few lbs and the manufactor will install Nitrogen in the tires from the factory. They may do it now don�t know. With all the crazy tire sizes we have now and a set in the range of $800.00 to $ 1000.00 whats $60.00 to fill�em with nitrogen so you kin git more life out of�em, I would also bet the makers of tires will soon require it on their high end tires, it would be a way outta them big law suits. Its just a matter of git'in all of the big players to play along.

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Mike M

10-19-2005 10:43:11




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Hobo,NC, 10-19-2005 10:17:49  
God help you all if all the cars and trucks end up with tire pressure monitors. I work at a Caddy dealer and these have been a real P I A ! How many of you want to buy new valve stems at $49.00 each. They have come down they were $81.00



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Hobo,NC

10-19-2005 12:23:39




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Mike M, 10-19-2005 10:43:11  
Its'a Federal law to comply by Sept. 2007, not that I like it



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Kevin Bismark

10-19-2005 18:07:07




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Hobo,NC, 10-19-2005 12:23:39  
funny when money is tight, the government never tries to trim the fat do they, they just cram this stuff down the throat of the people, what a joke..



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Bus Driver

10-19-2005 10:12:24




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Bob - MI, 10-19-2005 06:18:17  
The Earth's atmosphere is about 78% nitrogen with the other 22% being a mixture of several other gases including oxygen. The pure nitrogen for my tires would not induce me to pay $6.00 per tire for it.



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buickanddeere

10-19-2005 20:19:33




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Bus Driver, 10-19-2005 10:12:24  
Amen. The expansion and contraction due to temperature changes between atmosphere and pure N2 is negligible.



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Ron in Nebr

10-19-2005 09:24:17




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Bob - MI, 10-19-2005 06:18:17  
If you decide to go with this, another angle or potential customer group would be any racers around you. You could fill their tires and their portable air tanks before they go to the races.

I race stock cars and even though I don't do it, alot of guys I race against fill their racing tires with nitrogen.

The reason for this is because the H20 molecules in normal shop air expand when they get hot and change the diameter of the tires, thus changing chassis setup and handling. It's not uncommon for a right rear tire to gain 5-8psi during a typical 25 lap race. This changes handling a bunch since they start out with only 10psi. So you might be able to sell some that way, although the average racer might hesitate at six bucks per tire, since the average racing tire will go flat sitting in the shop in a few days. Another idea for advetising is to sponsor some local racer- supply him with nitrogen as needed in exchange for him running your company logo on his car.

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big fred

10-20-2005 07:07:30




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Ron in Nebr, 10-19-2005 09:24:17  
So you're saying that only water molecules obey the ideal gas law? Any gas will expand and/or increase pressure when heated, in accordance with the ideal gas law. You might recall it from high school physics, PV=mRT.



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Ranger John

10-19-2005 08:27:40




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Bob - MI, 10-19-2005 06:18:17  
I was at my tire guy for my car since all of my four tires at some time were losing air due to oxidation of the aluminum rims. At that time I asked him what was up and he explained that air has oxygen and water vapor and those two things play havoc on aluminum rims. With dry nitrogen, the rims won"t oxidize and you will have many less "slow leaks".

I don"t think the Nitrogen will do much to help the tire life unless oxidation and moisture internally caused problems.

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Mike M

10-19-2005 10:39:26




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Ranger John, 10-19-2005 08:27:40  
Take a look at where those rims oxidized. I'll bet it is between the bead and the rim lip,this is from the outside. The salt on the roads in the winter is the worse cause.



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mlm

10-19-2005 08:25:31




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Bob - MI, 10-19-2005 06:18:17  
I saw an ad in a Lansing, MI paper for a tire shop that installs nitrogen. They were really pushing it. Would they be any competion?



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Rauville

10-19-2005 07:39:46




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Bob - MI, 10-19-2005 06:18:17  
I would think that collectors of vehicles or tractors would see it as a viable investment to prolong the life of expensive tires / tubes that don't see enough mileage to wear out.
I know Jay Leno has a nitrogen generator in his shop.
Might be a narrow market to break into, but probably would prove worthwhile.
Good Luck!



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Mike M

10-19-2005 07:22:52




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Bob - MI, 10-19-2005 06:18:17  
I think I saw a local ad from a tire shop that was doing this. It just might be a better mouse trap,but after the initial fill who is going to know what is in there ? Reg. old air is going to get shot in there and mixed at some point as I don't know of anyone with nitrogen compressors at home.



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RustyFarmall

10-19-2005 07:06:09




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Bob - MI, 10-19-2005 06:18:17  
What little I know about it is that nitrogen is supposed to be less destructive to the tire than common air, but if a set of tires only lasts until they are worn out anyway I don't think the added expense of nitrogen would pay off for the consumer. I guess I really don't know, You need to visit with some tire dealers and get their opinion first.



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Jim_bobb

10-21-2005 16:47:08




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to RustyFarmall, 10-19-2005 07:06:09  
I do think it is 'smoke & mirrors'. Move on.



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18436572

10-23-2005 15:46:06




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 Re: Nitrogen filled tires - smoke and mirrors? in reply to Jim_bobb, 10-21-2005 16:47:08  
I hear they are putting green valve caps on to indicate they were filled with N2. But I don"t understand how it would behave any differently than air. I get the feeling it cropped up for consumer use when the gas prices went up, a way to make money, on the idea that they would hold the correct pressure longer, thus save gas. Don"t see how it would work any different than air?

As far as it being an investment, the question is whether or not people will buy it on a mass scale, my guess is that once the initial novelty of it wears off, the average person won"t bother with it. -john

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