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Taylor air compressor - free air!

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RayP(MI)

10-15-2005 15:40:00




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Was listening to the local PBS TV station and they were doing some sort of travelog of Michigan"s upper pennisula. Told of an air compressor which used no power, and had no moving parts. Used to provide air power to several mines during the copper mining hayday. Thought this was interesting, and started looking on the internet for details. Quite interesting, literally harnessed the air trapped in falling water.This is what I found: http://www.cobalt.ca/ragged_chutes.htm

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upred

10-16-2005 19:20:51




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 Big Quinnesec Falls in reply to RayP(MI), 10-15-2005 15:40:00  
we had several mines with compressed air from a dam on the Menomoniee River , The dam was called the Big Quinnesec falls ( locally known as Hydraulic Falls) Supplied some mines several miles away to operate hydraulic drills in the deep rock iron ore mines on the menominee iron range



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Rauville

10-16-2005 05:18:42




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 Re: Taylor air compressor - free air! in reply to RayP(MI), 10-15-2005 15:40:00  
Thanks Ray, That is one of the more informative articles I've seen here.



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Forever Sad

10-16-2005 05:58:28




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 Re: Taylor air compressor - free air! in reply to Rauville, 10-16-2005 05:18:42  
That is exactly the way I felt. It is definitely a cut above the stupidity that a lot of time is passed off on here as information.



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Fawteen

10-16-2005 04:17:26




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 Re: Taylor air compressor - free air! in reply to RayP(MI), 10-15-2005 15:40:00  
Cool! That's about as close to "free energy" as it gets!



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David - OR

10-16-2005 06:10:21




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 Re: Taylor air compressor - free air! in reply to Fawteen, 10-16-2005 04:17:26  
The compressed air is not free at all. As the "compressor" operates, the bottom of the mine fills up with water. The water must be pumped out in order to operate the mine and to continue to provide a shaft for the air/water mixture to fall through.

Pumping water is endemic to operating deep rock mines, and pumping out a little extra is not a big problem. But it costs more energy to pump out the extra water than is obtained from the compressed air.

Just think about the drawings of "perpetual motion machinesa", in which a waterwheel operates a pump, which pumps water back to the top of the waterwheel, which operates the waterwheel, etc.

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Rod (NH)

10-16-2005 09:33:58




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 Re: Taylor air compressor - free air! in reply to David - OR, 10-16-2005 06:10:21  
Hi David,

I'll agree, there is no such thing as a free lunch. The compressed air is "free" in this case only if one neglects to consider the initial construction cost of the facility along with any maintenance costs throughout it's useful life. These are significant investments that cannot be ignored in evaluating the "cost" of the compressed air. However, I see no pumps involved in this facility, so any costs associated with pumps in the mine itself would appear to be not relevant to the cost of the compressed air.
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third party image Rod

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Fawteen

10-16-2005 08:45:01




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 Re: Taylor air compressor - free air! in reply to David - OR, 10-16-2005 06:10:21  
Of course it ain't free, but I also didn't see anything about the waste water going into the mine. Looks like the compressed air is generated at a waterfall and piped to various mine sites.



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David - OR

10-16-2005 10:42:11




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 Re: Taylor air compressor - free air! in reply to Fawteen, 10-16-2005 08:45:01  
OK, the Ragged Chute setup is sort-of free. The energy can be provide by the 17 meter difference between the inlet height and outlet height of the flowing water. This difference in potential energy can provide power -- the supply of water at the inlet is provided (indirectly) by the sun, as it evaporates water and causes rain which indirectly moves the water back uphill. More energy goes into the system than comes out as compressed air, but the energy flux from the sun doesn't cost anything.

I grew up in Houghton, Michigan. This is right in the middle of the area where copper was mined extensively. With the possible exceptions of the Cliff mine, and maybe the Quincy mine, there were no readily available waterfalls or other convenient combinations of flowing water and geographical height differences to exploit in this way. So that's why I figured the air produced by such an arrangement, at least in Michigan, was not "free", since they'd have to dump water down a mine shaft to get the energy.

The deepest copper mines ended up at 5000+ feet below the surface. Since the area is surrounded by Lake Superior, you can easily imagine how much water they had to pump out of these mines, and how much energy they had to spend to keep them de-watered. The cost of energy to run air compressors was quite small compared to the cost to run the pumps.

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Coloken

10-16-2005 08:19:52




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 Re: Taylor air compressor - free air! in reply to David - OR, 10-16-2005 06:10:21  
True, and a good point. Looks like it could be used at the bottom of a water fall where the run off water was no problem, then the air piped to some use.
Kennyp



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