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Generator-Can't decide

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pbutler

09-28-2005 14:24:06




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We just built a new house and moved out to the farm about 4 months ago. When it rain sumps really run-without power I am sure we will have a wet basement at first good storm where power is out for day.

I want something to run well, sumps, furnace blower, and a couple light circuits. I am guessing about 5000watts.

I am shopping for a generator but can't decide between PTO or a standalone. I have a MF 255 (50hp) tractor. Sure would be cheaper to buy a generator head and throw a couple pulleys on a cart-and could get more power for the $ but don't really relish the idea of having my baby sitting there running for 24 hours.

On the other hand the standalone seems like a lot of $ to tie up for using 2 days a year.

We have a 1000lp tank and I have seen the tri-fuel generators but I think they are out of our pricerange.

I know each approach involves a trade off but I want to make sure I take all factors into consideration.

Any opinions positive or negative or recomendations on various approaches.

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Kendall

10-02-2005 09:41:42




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 Re: Generator-Can't decide in reply to pbutler, 09-28-2005 14:24:06  
Here's a good web site if anyone is interested in converting their generator to run on propane, natrual gas or tri-fuel- gasoline, propane, and natural gas. I like the natural gas idea. Its alway there, dont have to run for fuel supply.



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Eric Stevens

10-05-2005 19:27:54




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 Re: Generator-Can't decide in reply to Kendall, 10-02-2005 09:41:42  
I have an 11HP homelite 5500 watt. It runs my furnace & outdoor woodstove, Fridge, one freezer, kitchen light ground floor bath room, and well pump. Only thing I would advise is to get one with a 12v elec. start. If my power goes out the wife will never be able to start it due to compression. Rolls slow and hard.



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JeffE

10-01-2005 19:52:10




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 Re: Generator-Can't decide in reply to pbutler, 09-28-2005 14:24:06  
We've had power outage problems over the years, finally bought a 5kw generator (7.5 kw peak)a couple of years ago. Had an electician add a new subpanel that was generator driven for the fridge, freezer, well, furnace and microwave - enough to get by in a couple day outage.....that's why we bought the generator....spend a day without electricity and you will gladly spend $500 for a generator.....think about it...loss of food in the fridge, freezer....I live in Minnesota so what if the power goes out for two days when it's 20 below?? I have to think about the water pipes...heck...I can't even flush the toilet when the powers down....no problem for me but the wife hates it....best money I've spent is 500 bucks on a gas powered generator (bought it vs. PTO driven because it is easier to transport over snowbanks, ice, etc.), only used it a couple of times but it paid for itself the first time I used it....it's money in the bank after that. After what you've seen in New Orleans....anything can happen to anyone at anytime.....it makes me feel all the better with the generator.

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Robert in W. Mi.

09-30-2005 18:57:59




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 Re: Generator-Can't decide in reply to pbutler, 09-28-2005 14:24:06  
I've owned quite a few generators over the years, includeing two welder/generators. (i no longer have them)

In the end i bought a new Winco 15,000 watt cont. PTO generator ($1,250.00) and it's easily the best way to go for me. I say that because my diesel tractor runs cheaper and quieter than the smaller gensets i've owned and puts out a lot more power while doing it!!

I have it on a trailor in the shop and when i want to use it, it's no big deal to hook a tractor to it and drive it to the house, or i can use it to run my welder in the field too.

Diesel fuel stores a lot easier than gas and my tractor has a decent size fuel tank. That's a big plus along with those 200 hr oil changes vs. 25 hr..

BTW, i wouldn't own a tractor that couldn't take running my genset 24/7 for as long as i need it to!! I'd trade if off for one that would!!

Robert

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pbutler

09-29-2005 07:48:46




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 Re: Generator-Can't decide in reply to pbutler, 09-28-2005 14:24:06  
Thanks everyone, lots of great info!

Exactly what I needed-as usual.



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TomTX

09-29-2005 06:07:16




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 Re: Generator-Can't decide in reply to pbutler, 09-28-2005 14:24:06  
In 1999 I bought a Miller Bobcat 225NT, gives me 8000 watts continuous, has a Kohler 18 HP V-Twin. I use it all over the farm for welding, compressor operation for pnuematic fence T-post driving, etc. Then it doubles for my electric backup. Had my house wired with transfer switch.



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Mike M

09-29-2005 05:11:32




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 Re: Generator-Can't decide in reply to pbutler, 09-28-2005 14:24:06  
Sump pump is main problem get a battery back up pump or better yet if you have enough fall to a ditch rent a backhoe and tile that water away from the house end of problem. I have seen this many times around here the home site has enough fall for drain but some stuipid local code makes you put in a sump pump and worse yet they bring the footer drains inside then pump it out. Some even make you put a curb around the pump so you get 4" of water in the basement before it can even get to the sump. Pto generators are nice as you don't need to keep up an extra engine.Plus that extra engine if it sits for long may not go when you need it the most. I have some of each kind I picked up some engine driven units at a good deal.My main one is LP this is the best fuel as far as storage is concerned.Could be a real problem if you run out in the middle of a disaster getting refueled.I like the idea of the dual fuel LP ,gasoline units.Use LP so it doesn't get gummed up but if you ran out you could switch over to gas.

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NC Wayne

09-28-2005 21:50:58




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 Re: Generator-Can't decide in reply to pbutler, 09-28-2005 14:24:06  
I've got a 8500 watt diesel driven generator that I rely on anytime the power out my way goes down. When I first hooked it up I kept a AMP Clamp hanging on the wires to see how much load everything was pulling. I've got a gas pak for heat, an electric water heater (two 2500 watt elements in series for a metered total of 2500 watts), a gas stove/oven, a 1.5HP well pump, a gas cloths drier, along with the 'fridge, etc. Never was all of it running or starting at once. If I remember right the most load I ever had on it continuious, all at the same time, was somewhere between 3000 and 5000 watts, and then the water heater had kicked on and the well pump was going right after I had taken a shower. Your best deal for the money is something like a Miller Trailblazer. They offer you both the welder and, from at least 2002 on, a 10,000 watt generator. It's all in a fairely portable package, and when you can get a good used one for around $2500 you can't beat the price either. Too the tanks are designed to allow at least a 8 hour run time for a "normal" work day of welding which means as a generator it ought to get way more than 8 hours so there's less getting up in the middle of the night to refill the tank. True you could spend big bucks for a larger generator and "live like a king" through a power outage but why spend all that extra money for a few days out of a year. Not to mention all the extra fuel the larger unit is gonna burn just setting there idling with nearly no load. Just my .02

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ncfromneb

10-01-2005 12:28:02




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 Re: Generator-Can't decide in reply to NC Wayne, 09-28-2005 21:50:58  
If by chance you are willing to spend a little money and go with a welder/generator, I would suggest going with the Miller Bobcat 3phase. It has enough power to run most anything you own, and is engineered for farmers to use 3phase power to run a pivot if needed. 10,000 watts 1phase and 11,000 3phase with the addition of 225 amps dc welding capabilities.



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buickanddeere

09-28-2005 22:53:49




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 transfer panel and 2500W in series?Re: Generator-C in reply to NC Wayne, 09-28-2005 21:50:58  
Link

Two 240V 2500W heaters in series supplied by 240 V will only draw 1250W. In parallel they will draw 5000W when supplied with 240V. You have shed a pile of load with that connection but lost � of the water heating speed.

There is a world of difference going from a weenie 3500W to a 5000W and far better and wiser up to an 8500-9000W generator. Being diesel helps too with more rotating mass and having more inertia to help "flywheel" through surges. You will sometimes find the generator can start a motor load #1 when another motor load#2 is already running. When the generator can't start that motor #1 without any other loads on the generator. An AC induction motor will run briefly as an induction generator from inertia of it's rotating rotor, shaft and load. The backfeed from #2 can be enough to get motor #1 running. Reciprocating compressors without unloaders are very difficult to start.

People purchase thinking "running load" but the starting inrush current of 3 to 12 times that of the running current. This over sight catches people with too little starting reserve. Equals tripped breakers or smoky smells while sitting in the dark.

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Easy

09-28-2005 21:27:43




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 Re: Generator-Can't decide in reply to pbutler, 09-28-2005 14:24:06  
I am looking for a new system, I like the thought of a PTO job, but i am getting old and lazy, leaning toward a 15kw auto backup system. Just getting older and smarter? ( Or oler and lazier ).



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Jeffcat

09-28-2005 20:30:57




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 Re: Generator-Can't decide in reply to pbutler, 09-28-2005 14:24:06  
Up on the farm we "Had" a 15kw unit on the back of the tractor till my Dad fryed it. If you smell something getting hot you shut it DOWN! This unit had a HUGE old GE three phase motor unit. What a total shame. It was a giant can of charcoal and little wire thingys all over the place. They haven't lost power in years and no more cows so the H--ll with it. At Lowes down here in South Jersey I got a VERY nice gen set. I just can't get over how people have the b--lls to buy something, use it once, and bring it back!
I got a 5,200kw with a 10hp tacums engine for only...$225.oo! What a deal. New was $625.oo and I just threw in a $28.oo wheel set on top of the 225. I put one of those super quiet mufflers on it for about $70.oo. That big 10hp was just TOOOOO loud. Over by the basement steps is a nice twist lock box. Ten gauge wire to the box and we are ready to rock and roll. Stay with 5000 plus and I would stay with a portable unit. If your tractor breaks an oil pump shaft or blows a water hose or catches on fire and your rear is in the reclinerrrrr . PHOOOOM! The poratble is a whole lot cheaper to replace and you can do more with it. My $.o2 Jeffcat

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JT

09-28-2005 16:54:15




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 Re: Generator-Can't decide in reply to pbutler, 09-28-2005 14:24:06  
I, my brother, my dad all have 5800 watt continuous and it has run eveything for us so far, no problem, only had to do this once though. Normally it is a hit and miss use. A portable generator can be pretty handy to have, whereas a generator on a tractor kinda limits it to where/what you can use it . You can buy a decent Briggs Generator for abort 850-900.00. I am sure a 15kw pto genset will be about the same money and a lot less versitle.

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Stum

09-28-2005 15:44:18




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 Re: Generator-Can't decide in reply to pbutler, 09-28-2005 14:24:06  
I wouldn"t go any less than a 15KW,you"re kidding yourself with a 5Kw set,unless you want to be sitting by the fusebox switching circuits on and off so you can start a sump pump,while the well pump is running,along with the lights,and furnace,without burning up a motor.The tractor will probably burn less fuel loafing along with a 15KW set than the 5KW set burns trying to maintain voltage at full load.

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buickanddeere

09-28-2005 17:29:16




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 Re: Generator-Can't decide in reply to Stum, 09-28-2005 15:44:18  
Amen Stum. I just can't believe how cheap some people can be when purchasing a generator but there is $ for booze, smokes and a dinner out. It's only a couple of hundred dollars to go from a too small generator to something satisfactory. People have no idea how hard it is on the generator and load to try starting a fridge or well pump etc during under voltage. Now tie that 9000+W portable or 15KW pto unit in through a proper transfer switch. Extension cords are just a mess and require keeping a window or door open. As for those who tie their generator into a welder plug or even a stove or clothes dryer plug after shutting off the main switch. Shame on you, even swear words do not adequately describe people who do that. Illegeal too. Get a transfer switch/meter base from Ronk. Or a transfer switch built into the breaker panel from Reliance Controls. The little generator panels so many people proudly install in their house for a few mandatory circuits. Are just a money wasting joke that fill an electrician's pocket. Spend the same money with a cheaper trasfer system and a larger generator.

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Butch(OH)

09-29-2005 18:15:14




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 Well, maybe,, in reply to buickanddeere, 09-28-2005 17:29:16  
IF all people place the same value on being totaly comfortable that it appears you do. And place the same value on being totaly handy to use that you do. And can spend what ever it takes to install and operate such a system, as it appears you can do then I would have to agree. For us that are not inclined to spend whatever it takes to have all the comforts of full utility line power and only worry about keeping the wood burner fan or furnace going, a couple lights and maybe the fridge or well pump a smaller unit is not only good enough it is as good as spending 10 grand. People who balyhoo nothing but the big units "cause you may need to run your whole house for days or weeks when the big one hits" Dont like to talk about the fuel needed to run such contraptions per hour TIMES hours in a day TIMES Days in a week TIMES dollars per gallon. It is always "you realy want it to be handy and dont want to fuss with it do you?" I guess in this day of VISA everything they can worry about it later right? Add it up folks before you buy, how long are you going to run your whole house and be comfortable at $3 per gallon? Buick, I agree with most of your posts but I am not a lame brain for using a 5000 watt generator. I dont rush to use it every tme the power goes out for 30 minutes. When it looks like it's going to be a while I run the 110 extension cords I already needed to own into my house and plug in a few lights and the furnace. if it going to be a while the 220 cord comes out and I plug in the well, things I deem important to stay comfortable. Scottish? maybe, or cheap as it may be, but not stupid because I place different values on where I spend my dollars. I do know how to monitor my start and running loads and yes it can require some jockying to start the well pump. Dangerous half arsed "installations" that defy codes and common sence, we are in complete agreement on. To each his own.

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buickanddeere

09-29-2005 23:37:45




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 Re: Well, maybe,, in reply to Butch(OH), 09-29-2005 18:15:14  
I wasn't thinking of an auto start 20KW unit beside the house for $10,000+. Not in my budget either. One of these days however, a nice cheap used 10-20KW pto unit is going to be found at an auction sale. I get by with a 5500W BUT there is a PF correction capacitor installed at the main panel. And I feed 240 to 120/240 transformer. The generator never sees a 120V load or unbalanced loads from Line to neutral. It�s a chore balancing loads on a small generator when one line is loaded to max and yet the other line is loafing along at � load. The money difference between a 3500 and 5000W generator is negligible, a couple of hundred at most. I can't see the sense of spending $2500 to install an 8 circuit emergency power panel beside the main panel and try to limp along with a 3500W generator that can't start the well pump. And the 3500W struggles with a fridge of freezer compressor. For the same $$$ you can purchase and install the cheaper Reliance Controls transfer switch. And purchase a 5500 to 10,000W generator. Now instead of the lights dimming out and the generators breaker tripping ...again.....The motor's start without over heating the generator's or motor's windings. A generator maybe rated at "5000" watts continuos and may carry 5000VA when applied carefully.
In the real world a 7500W generator running a 5000W load has better voltage and frequency control to reduce the chances of smoking $$$ electronic equipment. The fuel consumption per hour will be very similar to the small unit running at max. And reactive power from motor loads will be handled better. Nothing like the people with a generator that keeps tripping the breaker and the windings smelling hot. And yet the engine is not working close what if would with the generator powering its full rated watts. A little extra capacity never hurts as the power usually goes out when I'm at work or on the road. The wife or kids forget and turn on too many loads. There is more warning and less chance of damage when the generator is running at 110% instead of at 150% until they clue in. A little extra capacity gets used up in the winter pretty fast. That tractor or vehicle block heater. And the hot air gun used to thaw water pipes soak up some extra watts saves running in and out of the house to swap loads. A good 75 or 100 ft 12 gauge extension cord is getting to be serious $$$ nowadays. May as well hook right to the service and not bother with extension cords. Equipment grounding and safety? A portable generator bouncing on the ground and powering loads through an extension cord. Is not grounded like temp power supplied and grounded through the buildings service panel.

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Butch(OH)

09-30-2005 06:06:51




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 Re: Well, maybe,, in reply to buickanddeere, 09-29-2005 23:37:45  
My point was, but I admit terribly stated, that we all have different views of what is included in life's wants verus needs. Did not intend to come off as challanging your electrical knowledge. For my intended use my 4000 works well, starts everything I need to run and I am smart enough to use it safely and effectively with out letting that precious smoke out of the motors or wires. I spent $500 (I think?)for my generator, already owned the heavy 110 cords. Spent $30 or so for a piece or four wire SO and ends to run 220 to the well pump and pounded (and megged by the way) a ground rod too. For your purposes you like a bigger unit with more automatics but you have to watch loads too. Others could say you are a cheapskate and cheating your family for comforts. Our Lowes cant keep those big whole house automatic stand by sets in stock and most have to hire the installation to boot, you dont. I will however stand on my statement that most will learn how bad they want to be whole house confortable with the first power loss measured in days, not hours. Was a long day yesterday and sorry for the tone of first post.

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buickanddeere

09-30-2005 07:15:33




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 Re: Well, maybe,, in reply to Butch(OH), 09-30-2005 06:06:51  
That's ok. You are one of the most resonable posters on this site. I'm the one that sometimes gets a little crankier than the situation warrents. Or I can't resist kicking somebody that is carrying the sign "kick me". With the heat trace on some plumbing, a fridge, two freezers, deep well pump, two fans on the wood stove and the 3/4HP furnace circulation fan. That little 5500 is barking lound and hard when the microwave is switched on.

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lucasss

09-28-2005 14:41:50




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 Re: Generator-Can't decide in reply to pbutler, 09-28-2005 14:24:06  
for just 2days a year ,one of the cheeper generators would be ok i think.. generac ,coleman or the like. i got a all honda genset that gets used about every week all day long and its quieter and works good.lucass



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RayP(MI)

09-28-2005 18:43:25




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 Re: Generator-Can't decide in reply to lucasss, 09-28-2005 14:41:50  
Agree with Lucass - for a couple days a year, you can get by with a portable unit. I"ve had a 8hp 4000 watt Coleman with a Briggs engine, and it has covered me any number of times, sometimes for up to a week. How much do you really need to power at once? Can you get by alternating a few things, like refrigerator or freezer - they don"t run continuous. Neither should furnace or sump pump. I run up to 4 freezers/refrigerators at once - haven"t lost any food yet! Or, the furnace and 3/4hp water pump at same time..... Nice to spend someone else"s money guys, but for backup power couple times a year, and a little field use, the small portable units of 8 to 12hp may be enough, without breaking the bank. Yeah, I would like to have bought a Honda, but I"ll get along with the Briggs, and as little as it is used, it"ll be my son"s problem to replace it!

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