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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Best way to pump water?

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Pilot

09-25-2005 07:23:53




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I have 42 slash piles to burn after logging. The state fire guys want me to have a pump on site capable of pumping 50 gpm & a 200+ gal. water source. As far as I know, I will never need to use this pump again. They will let me burn 2 piles a day, maybe more.

What's the cheapest setup I can rig? Will a trash pump work? Are they meant to generate pressure or are they just for bailing water against no resistance? Do they have a bypass so you can shut off the nozzle without harming the pump? What about a PTO pump? Any other ideas?

Thanks.

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Eric Stevens

10-05-2005 19:37:08




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to Pilot, 09-25-2005 07:23:53  
Give your volunteer fire department something to practice on. We did this for a big pile for my mother-in-law in N.Y.. Gave the guys lunch. Good training for them and a cheap alternative.



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BigMarv1085 in Ga.

09-28-2005 10:33:32




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to Pilot, 09-25-2005 07:23:53  
I bought a homelite 2" 3 horse pwr. for a $179 new from D&L wholesale about five years ago. I have one of those plastic water tanks in the cage that I paid $20 for. I made a bracket set up on my trailer and pump. Pull 2 pins and the pump is on and off in about 2 minutes. The tank has a 2" threaded opening with a shut off valve.



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Hal/WA

09-26-2005 23:19:06




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to Pilot, 09-25-2005 07:23:53  
In our area, the DNR will let us burn without water on hand after there is snow on the ground. I generally do my piles in areas that have no stumps (because a stump can burn for months underground and cause a fire the next summer) and then cover part of each pile with a cheap blue tarp. I dig a fire trail around each pile down to "mineral soil" and wait until snow falls. I light the fires in the area protected by the tarp, which usually will be dry enough to get the pile going no matter how much snow has fallen. A propane weed burner torch is very convenient to get the fires going, and a lot safer than using gas or other fuel.

The fires usually burn very well the first day and consume most of the pile. I usually push the edges in with my front end loader tractor to get a better burn. Sometimes the piles stay hot in the middle for a couple of months, so before it gets warm and dry in the Spring, I spread out the burn piles to make sure there is no chance a fire could get away from me.

When I was a kid, we always started our burn piles with an old worn out tire--a burning tire would produce enough heat to get very wet wood burning. But today the DNR burn permits specificly prohibits burning tires because of air pollution concerns, and if they catch you burning tires, they not only fine you, but cancel your permit. So I no longer burn tires....the cheap blue tarp method works OK for me.

A couple of years ago I burned about 50 piles over the winter, never starting more than 3 per day, as the permit allowed. But many of my piles stayed hot for at least 2 weeks and some much longer. But being careful, I never had any trouble with any of my piles, and the place sure looked better after I was done. I am not sure I would have allowed my place to be logged if I had known how much mess the loggers would leave.....

I don't know where you live, but if you get snow in your area, you might ask if your permitting agency has the same rules about fire protection if there is snow on the ground. It sure is easier to be able to light a pile and essentially leave it rather than having to closely baby-sit the fire until it is out. With snow on the ground and a little sense about where a pile is located, there is almost no danger of a fire spreading or getting away from you.

Be real careful! In Washington, if the fire department or other fire suppression has to respond to a controlled burn that gets away, that agency can bill the land owner for the costs of the response. And that adds up real quick! Good luck!

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Dave_N_Ga

09-26-2005 22:02:23




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to Pilot, 09-25-2005 07:23:53  
A trash pump will work just fine. I use an old 2"/3hp pump to irrigate my pasture. Plenty of pressure and volume. Tractor Supply and Harbour Freight sells a 3 hp Pacer Pump for a resonable price. I dont have the number anymore but if you contact Wayne Pumps, they sell factory remans.

Dave



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buickanddeere

09-26-2005 17:18:05




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to Pilot, 09-25-2005 07:23:53  
Place the pump below the storage tank instead of at or above it's level. A low restriction line without sharp bends from the tank will also improve performance.



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thejdman01

09-26-2005 14:48:12




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to Pilot, 09-25-2005 07:23:53  
i once fudged on the number of piles i was burning at once. they fined me i forget how much and the local fire dept came put out the extra pile and charged for it. they absolutly drenched the pile (expectedly) and it had just got started. way too much wood to bury with the backhoe ended up by the time it dried out having to get another permit cost me more moeny. it was entirely way too costly to fudge the permit however i got caught. if you dont i guess its no problem.

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Gary in Geneva

09-26-2005 06:04:46




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to Pilot, 09-25-2005 07:23:53  
We have burned a few logging slash piles. In our case it was mostly pine. They tend to burn rather HOT! Here is a picture of one of them:>Link

We>Link have converted an ex-military 400 gallon water buffalo for our use as a fire trailer. I don't have a good picture of it,>Link

We>Link always disk a fire break around the piles and make sure we are down to mineral soil before we start. Our burn permits require us to start the fires no sooner than 9:00am and we are to have all visible flames extinguished by 5:00pm, but we are not limited on the number of piles. We found that 600 � 800 gallons of water with wetting agent would extinguish the flames on one pile and make a heck of a lot of steam, but the fire popped back up within an hour. We had 20� of coals when we tried to extinguish the piles. We now break out the hot dogs and marsh mellows and enjoy our unregulated camp fire for a few hours till it is down to a bed of coals. The last pile we burned had hot coals 8 days later, due to the lighter wood stumps.

Be safe,

Gary

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MAC,IL

09-26-2005 10:05:37




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to Gary in Geneva, 09-26-2005 06:04:46  
nice photos, looks like you are equipped to handle the job. Nice set up.



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Mike M

09-26-2005 05:53:22




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to Pilot, 09-25-2005 07:23:53  
I'd go buy an old fire truck. Keep it around until your done burning then resell it. But then I'm always looking for an excuse to get a new toy !



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NC Wayne

09-25-2005 18:05:26




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to Pilot, 09-25-2005 07:23:53  
Lets see, a 50GPM pump with a 200 gallon tank, I hope for your sake the piles aren't very big and never get out of hand. I've yet to see a "normal" size brush pile that could be completely extinguished in 4 minutes. As far as a pump many of the small 1", two stroke driven, pumps will put out the required GPM with no problem. Typically they are centrifugal so having them running with a hose and a nozzle isn't a big deal because with the flow shut off the impeller simply spins in the water. Depending on the size of the piles and the make up of them you might be just as well off doing like one of the other replys suggested and renting a chipper. The chips make excellent ground cover for muddy areas and you might just be able to sell a load or two of them also.

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Pilot

09-25-2005 19:59:23




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to NC Wayne, 09-25-2005 18:05:26  
Thanks for all the input. Here's more info:

The 200 gallons & 50 gpm are state requirements and don't make much sense to me and as one person said, there's no way I could put it out in 4 minutes--maybe 40 minutes if I had enough water. I will be burning in the winter when it is soaking wet here in the Pacific northwest; the state requires me to have the stuff on hand to put out the fire if the wind should change and start putting smoke into Portland--they don't care about the little towns.

Water source: I have a 5 x 10 ft. trailer which I'll line with plastic & fill with water. I'll actually have more like 400 gallons because it is easy to do. No nearby creeks or ponds.

Chipping: That's what my brother suggested, but you guys haven't seen the piles. I took one pile apart this summer because it was too close to my pole barn & it took several days of hard work. Limbs 15-25 ft. long all intertwined, & up to 4" in diameter. Most remaining piles are 20-25 ft. across and 8 ft. high. I already pulled out all the usable firewood I could get. Besides, burning is a lot more fun than chipping!

2 piles per day: I think they will let me fudge on this if the conditions are right.

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Leland

09-25-2005 16:37:30




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to Pilot, 09-25-2005 07:23:53  
Go to the used tool stores we have one called retool you can find one cheaper there and don't rent one you can always buy cheaper . And fyi I have saw 3hp pumps for as little as 199.00 so shop around and if you lived closer to me I have a 200 gal tank laying around that I would give you just to get it out of yard .



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Leland

09-25-2005 16:37:26




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to Pilot, 09-25-2005 07:23:53  
Go to the used tool stores we have one called retool you can find one cheaper there and don't rent one you can always buy cheaper . And fyi I have saw 3hp pumps for as little as 199.00 so shop around and if you lived closer to me I have a 200 gal tank laying around that I would give you just to get it out of yard .



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Midwest redneck

09-25-2005 13:50:39




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to Pilot, 09-25-2005 07:23:53  
In the Northern tool catalog you can get a 40 or so GPM water pump for $500 and then sell the pump when your done with it. Is there a water source near by, like a lake or pond?



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Slowpoke

09-25-2005 11:52:39




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to Pilot, 09-25-2005 07:23:53  
42 piles/2/day = 21 days weather permiting. How long is the permit valid? Got an 1-1/2" fire hose? What do you do if the pile's not burned and OUT by supper time?
Have you considered chipping it? Probably won't take any longer than watching it burn, nowhere near as hazardous, and give you good exercise. You can stop any time you want. Just a thought.



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paul

09-25-2005 12:01:18




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to Slowpoke, 09-25-2005 11:52:39  
Buying a new pump & tank would be cheaper than the fuel to do so!!!! Be kind to the environment, burn the stuff.

Lot of ag spraying equp would work out, old 300 gal sprayers sell for $200 or less, and a gas powerer water transfer pump will go the same.

Can resell when you are done.

--->Paul



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Fawteen

09-25-2005 11:35:47




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to Pilot, 09-25-2005 07:23:53  
Look into renting a 2" trash pump. Plenty of capacity if a properly sized water source is available, and a helluva lot cheaper than buying.



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Coloken

09-25-2005 11:05:26




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to Pilot, 09-25-2005 07:23:53  
Read yours again. Yes, most sprayer pumps and most pumps would need a pressure relief/bypass valve. Centrifical pumps "unload" when shut off.



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Coloken

09-25-2005 11:01:23




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 Re: Best way to pump water? in reply to Pilot, 09-25-2005 07:23:53  
They use to make a PTO sprayer pump that was a centrifical. Not sure of its GPM, but think it was 20 or 30. Could you get by with that and a 200 gal spray tank. Other wise, like a 2 inch gas driven job.



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