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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Electrical question

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SteveinCT

09-21-2005 08:23:53




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I changed out a electrical lug panel in the house this weekend to get a couple of extra circuits to wire up the new shop. The old panel was wired with a jumper from the neutral bar over to the ground bar. Anyone know if this is acceptable?? Right now, the jumper is off. I always thought the ground and neutral, while almost the same thing, should be separate. Thanks! Steve




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SteveinCT

09-22-2005 07:21:43




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 Re: Electrical question in reply to SteveinCT, 09-21-2005 08:23:53  
Guys, Thanks for the replies. This is a sub-panel that was added about 15 years ago by the previous owners when they added an addition. From the looks of the wiring, whoever did it knew what they were doing. Doesn't mean they were licensed, I know. Steve



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David - OR

09-22-2005 07:43:08




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 Re: Electrical question in reply to SteveinCT, 09-22-2005 07:21:43  
It sounds like this is a sub-panel fed from another panel in the same building. If the ground and neutral are tied together in this sub-panel, the installer did NOT know what they were doing, no matter how pretty the wiring looks.

I can't think of any circumstance where such a connection would be correct. This should not be confused with the situation when the subpanel is in a different building. There is (or was) a provision in the NEC allowing such sub-panels to be served by only three wires, and thus, in that circumstance) a neutral-ground connection is installed in the remote building.

Personally, I would not use this provision for a new installation, and would run 4 wires to all remote panels. The neutral/ground connection would be made at only one point; at the service disconnect.

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dr.sportster

09-21-2005 14:12:10




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 Re: Electrical question in reply to SteveinCT, 09-21-2005 08:23:53  
These electrical questions are often tricky as those who answer are not looking at whats really been done. It would matter in this case if you are talking about your main panel or a subpanel.If you post a picture of the new panel it would be interesting.The statement that neutral and ground are almost the same is incorect as one is a current carrying conductor[neutral]And the ground carries current only in a fault situation or possible lighntning strike.Thinking a neutral wire or buss is not carrying current has gotten many people killed.Further NOTICE after taking last code update I have in the past given incorrect info about ground rods at outer buildings. Other guys have stated in the past inspectors want to see two rods out at the barn or whatever building ,Im told[by inspectors] mostly for lightning protection.Grounding conductor still run back to main panel or other suitable location.When I first got in the trade all grounding was "targeted" to the main panel only and rods at outer buildings were not to be driven.Much of this grounding practice and theory has changed dramaticly over that last several code periods.There is a reason for electrical permits and inspections.I went to an electrical engineers house once because he said the inpector was realy busting him bad.When I saw the work he had I told him the inspector is trying to keep you from burning down your house.He had romex going out and back into the same box.When I said what is this wire,he said thats to feed the switch on the other side of the 6 gang box.You do that with an internal jumper not a loop of wire in and out of the same box.All his wiring was a total code violation for just plain bad workmanship.I personally beleive it takes a helper about 6 months to learn to make a good 12 wire splice and fold it neatly into the box.I dont know if you have a violation or not because you didnt say main or subpanel.

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Slowpoke

09-21-2005 23:46:23




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 Re: Electrical question in reply to dr.sportster, 09-21-2005 14:12:10  
Dr. sportster... is the neutral bar and the ground bar common to the enclosure? If they are, then why is a jumper needed when the current can flow between the two thru the metal back of the enclosure? Maybe because the enclosure is painted and a jumper is insurance?



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dr.sportster

09-22-2005 10:51:51




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 Re: Electrical question in reply to Slowpoke, 09-21-2005 23:46:23  
Well I tend to see the same type of equipment and not much variety.Guys have had panels on tool talk I never heard of but what Ive seen is the both are on plastic with a green screw supplied.The small green screw is screwed through the neutral buss into the back box for bonding purposes.In an office building,commercial location etc the panel being installed is, in most cases a sub panel and this screw is disgarded.For resisential use Square D equipment seems very good and protective.I have shorted wires to a box[by accident not to find a breaker which is bad practice]and without any sparks thrown at all the 20 amp Square -D tripped.In the larger Square -D gear there is limited wire space making for some bloody knuckles if you forgot your gloves.In a main panel the neutrals and grounds can be landed on the same terminal strip.

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old electrician

09-22-2005 05:14:48




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 Re: Electrical question in reply to Slowpoke, 09-21-2005 23:46:23  
the neutral bar is insulated



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paul

09-25-2005 19:11:52




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 Re: Electrical question in reply to old electrician, 09-22-2005 05:14:48  
I'm no electrician, but if it;s a UL listed box, the neutral bus sure should be isolated! :)

--->Paul



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dr.sportster

09-26-2005 12:50:29




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 Re: Electrical question in reply to paul, 09-25-2005 19:11:52  
Untill you install the bonding screw where required in the main panel or switch gear.What code article are you trying to refer to?



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paul

09-21-2005 19:26:15




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 Re: Electrical question in reply to dr.sportster, 09-21-2005 14:12:10  
I just had the whole 'backbone' of the farm rewired. By the pros. They did nice work. I had a 60 amp total service, 6 or 8 ga overhead wires. now everything is underground, 60 amp service to 10 buildings, actually 200 amps available at several junction boxes. Man, is that some kinda cable!

Anyhow, it was interesting to see what must pass for code. Thought everything needed to have 4 wires these days, but nope, a ground rod at every building. I needed a 200 amp breaker at the meter, that is a change that the electricians did not really like, but code now. Very hard to wire in a pto generator this way, from what I hear.

Most surprising are those 200 amp junction boxes. Weatherproof, but without a bolt in the little snap lock, real easy to open up & touch 200 amps. The whole lock isn't very strong even with a bolt. Figured that kinda power would be barracaded a little more.

--->Paul

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buickanddeere

09-22-2005 12:21:32




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 Re: Electrical question in reply to paul, 09-21-2005 19:26:15  
"but code now. Very hard to wire in a pto generator this way, from what I hear." Easiest generator connection access there is to do. It would have cost you only a couple of dollars more for a main disconnect with a transfer breaker and a receptacle. Reliance Controls makes a 200 amp feed through transfer panel. And Ronk makes a meter base with a generator transfer switch built in.



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buickanddeere

09-21-2005 09:04:36




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 Re: Electrical question in reply to SteveinCT, 09-21-2005 08:23:53  
The neutral is bonded to ground at the 1st distribution panel/supply end of the system.
I've seen that bond opened for a temporary fix on farms with stray voltage problems. The neutral is supposed to be bonded to the service transformer center tap and ground rod at the transformer pole. And vice versa the transformer neutral/ground bond undone and just the service distribution panel bonded ground to neutral. If you feed a line(s), neutral and ground to a sub panel somewhere. Then the neutral/ground bond is opened in the sub panel. You could have installed a FPE or Reliance Controls breaker panel with a built in transfer switch for a standby generator connection.

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Gary Schafer

09-21-2005 18:43:25




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 Re: Electrical question in reply to buickanddeere, 09-21-2005 09:04:36  
The neutral - ground bond is to be done at the MAIN BREAKER box, which is not necessarily the main distribution panel. The Main breaker could be ,and often is, located at the meter. The breaker / distribution panel may be separate from that. In that case the ground - neutral bond is done at the main breaker panel and the ground - neutral bond is not connected in the distribution panel.

If the main breaker and distribution panel are one and the same then the ground - neutral bond is done in that panel.

Regards
Gary

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ScottP

09-21-2005 09:02:15




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 Re: Electrical question in reply to SteveinCT, 09-21-2005 08:23:53  
Steve
The neutral and ground are supposed to be connected in the main panel. Hook it back up.
Scott



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