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Using plastic for compressed air piping

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Big Jake

01-26-2001 12:14:58




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When you get to this site, Bug "PE Magazine" in upper l/h corner. Then bug "January Issue" about 1/4 way down. Finally bug the "Using plastic for compressed air piping" article about 1/2 way down
happy reading

www.manufacturing.net/magazine/planteng/




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Neil

01-29-2001 06:50:19




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 Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to Big Jake, 01-26-2001 12:14:58  
I agree with "none of you read the article"

Most of us have learned through study or experiance, the dangers of PVC and most other plastic pipes when used with compressed air.
However, not reading the article just implies that after 1/4, 1/2, 2/3, or 3/4 of a life of learning, you have now decided to stop.
Remember, even gavinized iron, black steel, coper, etc. were once "new" materials.
Geeze, I better stick to my brace and bit, that new fangeled electric drill looks mighty dangerious!

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Jim WI

01-29-2001 10:34:58




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 Re: Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to Neil, 01-29-2001 06:50:19  
Big Jake is right. The day I stop learning new things is the day they nail the lid on.

Go read the article. It's interesting -- even if you never plan on using the stuff.



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Joe Evans

01-27-2001 20:48:04




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 Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to Big Jake, 01-26-2001 12:14:58  
I believe the State of Ohio Pressure Piping Code forbids use of common plastic piping (S40 PVC Pressure, S80 PVC and CPVC, etc.) for compressed air systems. These piping systems, if they fail, will utterly fail under compressed air throwing shrapnel everywhere. However, I think Nibco has developed a plastic piping system that is OK to use for compressed air. It's brand new, probably scarce, and costly as well. Stick with common black or galvanized threaded systems or a well soldered copper system. Do not use Type M copper pipe!

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Jim WI

01-29-2001 10:32:51




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 Re: Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to Joe Evans, 01-27-2001 20:48:04  
The article is indeed about Nibco's plastic pipe.



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none of you read the article

01-27-2001 16:53:51




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 Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to Big Jake, 01-26-2001 12:14:58  
If you did you would have seen that it said "NOT" to use pvc, but is talking about a specially formulated abs that does not shatter when pressure is too high. It will split when it fails, releasing the pressure without shrappnel



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I Don`t Need To Read The Article To Know It`s Bad

01-27-2001 17:13:59




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 Re: Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to none of you read the article, 01-27-2001 16:53:51  
The pipe possibly fracturing, throwing shrapnel through my shop, isn`t the only concern I have. I only buy quality air tools, which means more money, so I don`t want to trash them because I could save a few bucks on the pipe, or some work on the installation. Water in compressed air is your enemy. Russ



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T_Bone

01-28-2001 05:20:29




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 Re: Re: Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to I Don`t Need To Read The Article To Know It`s Bad, 01-27-2001 17:13:59  
Hi Guy, You know, just because you have a different view, you shouldn't be affaid to post your thoughts or your name. It takes all kinds of opinions to make a idea work or a better product.

Yes I did read the article. If you notice, I reffered to "plastic" pipe because thats just what the article was refferring to, another form of plastic pipe.

You missed my point (not you Russ) as I was just making everyone aware, just because there's a new improved product on the market doesn't mean it's 100% "TIME" tested. Steel pipe on the other hand has been used for over 100's of years and I would have to say is very well "time tested". Plastic pipe although it's been around for approx. 50yrs, has "failed" in different applications that the "oil companys" have tried to make us feel safe at. You did know plastic comes from crude oil!

And that is my POINT, over time plastic can't do the job and never has been able too!

If a air system is installed correct, tee's are taken off the top (not the bottom) of the main run, 6" drip legs installed on every riser with air supply taken off above the 6" drip leg, all horzontial legs are set to drain at 1/8" to the foot drop, then moister and pipe scum will be at a minmium in the supply air.

T_Bone

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Tools

01-27-2001 15:15:03




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 Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to Big Jake, 01-26-2001 12:14:58  
Until two years ago I was a Naval Officer. I spent 8 1/2 of 11 years as a carrier pilot. Essentially, I've spent my entire adult life doing unspeakably dangerous stuff. What I've learned is this: all activity is dangerous, therefore, you need to manage the danger. With respect PVC, although the odds of an explosion (or rupture) don't appear all that likely, the likelihood of sustaining personal injury great enough to make the entire endeavor not worthwhile are high. Like losing an eye, and therefore my cushy airline pilot job. Although I don't know a thing about PVC personally, I've read enough articles written by engineers (who do), posts by people whose opinion I respect (by monitoring their posts on LOTS of subjects for quite a while, like T-bone) and personal accounts of PVC failures (which a "worst case scenario" mindset uses instead of personal accounts of success with PVC) to convince me, using PVC just because it's cheaper (and easier) isn't worth it. I'm saving up pieces of black iron for my system.

Mike
Chickamauga, GA

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Russ

01-27-2001 05:42:52




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 Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to Big Jake, 01-26-2001 12:14:58  
I haven`t seen it mentioned in this post, that plastic pipe doesn`t facilitate condensation of the entrained moisture in the compressed air. In a metal pipe system you use dead legs or drops, and a slight pitch in the pipe runs to collect the condensed water to be bled off before the point of use. I haven`t seen any plastics this will work with because the plastics aren`t thermally conductive enough. I`ve also seen some nasty shatters in the less flexible plastic pipe like pvc and cpvc. I wouldn`t use it. Russ

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the tractor vet

01-27-2001 12:50:25




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 Re: Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to Russ, 01-27-2001 05:42:52  
we used inche and a half pvc in our shop but off of the compressor we put in twenty feet of one inch black pipe to take teh heat and some of the moiture away then put drops in twentyfour feet works welll



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Shep

01-26-2001 17:53:58




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 Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to Big Jake, 01-26-2001 12:14:58  
There was quite a lively discussion on here around mid December concerning this very issue - plumbing for compressed air.

After reading all the comments I have chosen to go with Black iron for my plumbing (copper is great alternative). My reasons are:
1) availability
2) standard in most shops
3) standard pipe sizes and fittings
4) no soldering although I do plan to seal joints
5) copper is great but to expensive right now
6) should last forever provided I put maintain it
HTH,
Shep

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Johnny

01-26-2001 17:46:21




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 Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to Big Jake, 01-26-2001 12:14:58  
My uncle ran the pipe in my 3000 sq.ft. cabinet shop in 1984, he used what we call Qest, this is the thin wall grey plastic pipe that uses ferrels and screw type fittings, my compressor pumps at 125 psi just about every working day of the year and I have never had a single problem, If I was to run it again I would probably use black pipe but the proof is in the pudding. Johnny



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T_Bone

01-26-2001 15:27:39




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 Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to Big Jake, 01-26-2001 12:14:58  
Hi Jake, Reminds me of Colorado in 1970's when the plastic pipe company's pushed for plastic pipe usage for natural gas. Natural gas has a pressure of .5psi normal pressure. They installed this new "improved" system in a new subdivision west of Denver. Before it was over 30 homes were leveled and several people lost there lives. Lucky that the project was still in the construction phase and no children were killed.

What the engineering experts said happened, was the ground frooze deeper than expected that winter and fractured the pipe when vechiles drove over the top of the ground, a leak started and a truck backfired causing the expolsion. The typical depth of the layed pipe was 6ft underground and normal frost line was 4ft! This therory is a bunch of hogwash. Look what happens when you light a gas burner, and this is what happens when you get a leak. The ground had to be saturated with natural gas for this type of explosion to occur, so the system had to be leaking alot for along time and had to be leaking in several over lapping areas!

The pictures I saw looked like several bombs had been droped. They even showed body parts laying all over the place. Pick-up turcks torn in half or in so many pieces you had to look really hard to tell what it was.

Now some of the engineering types here are going to say, natural gas is deliverd at a much higher pressure then reduduced to the .5psi at each home. That was not the case here and this was there "back-up" saftey feature incase something like this ever happened.

Yes I know were dealing with compressed air and I've stated before when compressed air blows it's not like a bomb and that is still true. What I was trying to get accross, just because you read it somewhere it don't make it so! I'll leave plastic pipe to sprinkler systems where it's useful and use steel pipe for my compressed air systems.

T_Bone

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Ray,IN

01-26-2001 17:58:08




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 Re: Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to T_Bone, 01-26-2001 15:27:39  
AMEN!



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bob

01-27-2001 04:58:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to Ray,IN, 01-26-2001 17:58:08  
If I remember right that bad plastic pipe was CENTURYIt should all be removed from ground by now



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john Ne.

01-27-2001 07:15:54




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to bob, 01-27-2001 04:58:25  
25 years ago in Fremont Nebraska, the gas company had laid plastic pipe, they were called to investigate a gas leak at a hotel there called the Pathfinder, while in the basement, something ignited, almost 20 people died, and several buildings were destroyed. plastic pipe. I was there directing traffic in the aftermath, and got to see gas power up real close.



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Bruce

01-26-2001 14:56:03




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 Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to Big Jake, 01-26-2001 12:14:58  

Interesting info! ..... Thanks for posting the link. But, I'll stick to copper lines for my needs.



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Pete the Plumber

01-26-2001 16:37:45




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 Re: Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to Bruce, 01-26-2001 14:56:03  
This appears to be different from the plastic air piping I saw at a trade show. The system I saw was incredibly expensive, both for tools and materials. It was "welded" by heating the joints with their special equipment. If anyone has cost information on this system, please share with us.



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Knut

01-27-2001 06:08:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to Pete the Plumber, 01-26-2001 16:37:45  
PE(polyethelene) pipe is being used for Water, Sewer, Natural Gas, conduit for wires and probably other things.
It can be put together with heat fusion, Electro fusion and other fittings BUT is normally used only below ground as the material is affected by the UV's of light and will weaken from the exposure over time from the UV's. Gasoline, oil and some other liquids will also cause it to decompose. As with anything you must know where and what it can be used for!!! Be C

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catblaster

01-26-2001 17:53:15




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 Re: Re: Re: Using plastic for compressed air piping in reply to Pete the Plumber, 01-26-2001 16:37:45  
Pete; the pipe you saw at that trade show is similar to PEX (cross-linked polyethelene) and has properties that differ from PVC or CPVC. It is softer and less brittle than PVC so would be suitable for air distribution. My opinion is that cpvc would be usefull although not completly safe. If anyone has doubt about the safety of PVC for air just try to ask the family of the victim killed during the construction of a local tourist park in central florida. The company had used air to test with, blew apart and killed a worker. company is now out of business. Sorry I got away from your question but this has been a touchy subject with me for a long time.

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