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barn electrical question

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time2plow

08-09-2005 16:46:27




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I have installed a 100 amp sub panel in my new pole barn. I ran 4 wire from my 200 amp panel in the house. I seperated the neutral and the grounds in the new box, thus utilizing the ground at the main in the house. The inspector tells me today that I have to have 2 ground rods driven outside the pole barn, 6 feet apart and connected together with #4 copper. He said I will have to disconnect the ground that comes from the house.
I am not an electrician, but have done a good bit of electrical work and had it inspected and never had a problem. The inspector said that this is code per NEC, not a local code. I looked in the NEC that is a few years old and could not find this in there. Any help would be appreciated. thanks

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Short Round

08-10-2005 18:19:36




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to time2plow, 08-09-2005 16:46:27  
Article 250 of the National Electricial Code, 250.32 "Two or more building or structures supplied from a common service" The NEC gives you two options, you can run three wires to you new panel or you can run four wires to your panel. If you choose to go with three you will need the ground rods and you will "bond" the ground and neutral with the bonding screw. If you choose to go with the four wires you also will need the ground rods cause in another area of the code it tells you if you add any more than one circut to an outbuilding you will be requred to go with the ground rods. If you use the four wire system you will remove the bonding screw and not use it. The fourth wire we are talking about is the bare or grounding wire. The area you want to look at in the code is Art. 250.32 b, 1&2 Hope this helps, if you have any doubts call the inspector and get the answers, thats what they are paid for. Do it once, do it right and be done with it.

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Kevin Bismark

08-10-2005 19:04:03




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to Short Round, 08-10-2005 18:19:36  
actually you have 2 options if you have no continous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved 250.32 b 2 ,, if you have metallic paths you only have one option, dragging 4 wires, most of the time now day's I see metallic paths between the 2, gas lines, water lines, phone lines, cable tv ect..So I usually just plan on dragging 4 wires even before I get out to the job. Have friends that are inspectors so we get into this pretty deep over a few beers once in a while and start looking for the exceptions that are buried all over the place in the code book, or the technical stuff, the wires leave the house as a feeder, and enter the garage as a service, or do they?? And we go on and on, at least the residential stuff is pretty straight forward, on some of the big industrial jobs I have to sit down with the code book and a calculator and size everything or check the print and see if it's right all the way from where the 13,800 volts comes into the building to the last feeder to a switchboard, then there are the generators and transfer switches, the one big thing that did change for us when we do large buildings is the way we bond the transformers that are all over the building

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Kevin Bismark

08-10-2005 17:24:15




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to time2plow, 08-09-2005 16:46:27  
the new code hasn't changed that much in art 250 moved a few things around like they usually do, art 250.66 says the conductor that is the sole connection the the grounding electrode shall not be required to be larger than 6 awg copper, so why would they want you to tie them together with 4, I have all mine tied with 4 because I had a bunch laying around, now the connection to the underground metal piping connected within 5 feet of where the pipe enters the building would be sized off table 250.66 and is based on the cross sectional area of the ungrounded service conductors but we all ready know that for 200 we run a number 4, now if we go to 250.56 it tells us that if the resistance to ground is not 25 ohms or less , it shall be augmented by one additional electrode of any of the types specified by 250.52 and it also say's they shall not be less than 6 feet apart in that article and I will tell you that 6 feet is really too close to do much good if they ever get a chance to do what they are for, the ground rod shall be at least 8 feet in length, so we usually just multiply the lenght of the ground rod by 1.5 and space them that way, they come a lot longer than 8 feet.. Good luck with your project.
Kevin

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Cliff (VA)

08-10-2005 14:10:05




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to time2plow, 08-09-2005 16:46:27  
As I read the 2002 code (I don't have the 2005) you can either (Section 250.32 B 1) run a ground with the wires and NOT connect a grounding rod or (Section 250.32 B 2) you can NOT run a ground wire and use 2 ground rods at the subpanel.

This was a change in the 2002 code, your locality may be using an older code.

In the end I have found that you have to do what the inspector will pass.

Cliff (VA)

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Kevin Bismark

08-10-2005 17:28:08




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to Cliff (VA), 08-10-2005 14:10:05  
What determins weather you can run 3 or 4 wires is simple, if you have any metalic connections between the the two buildings you have no choice, you run 4 wires and isolate the ground from the neutral and pound ground rods, if there is no metalic connection you can do what you want, drag 3 out there, leave the bonding screw in the neutral bus and pound the ground rods



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dr.sportster

08-10-2005 12:46:53




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to time2plow, 08-09-2005 16:46:27  
Please ask this inspector what code article he is refering to.The only rod should be at main panel in my book.The pipe run must also have a grounding conductor.Something aint right here.Ive been following a series of articles in EC&M magazine in 11 parts and several things Ive read make me wonder what he is talking about.Part seven just came out but in part two it shows what is described by this inspector electrocuting a dog.With no ground what will operate the overcurrent device back at the main panel.Not those extra rods.

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Kevin Bismark

08-10-2005 17:45:15




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to dr.sportster, 08-10-2005 12:46:53  
don't know where ec&m gets their information, haven't read it in many years, now the grounding , article 250.32 is the article you want to read, buildings or structures supplied by feeders or branch circuits, shall have a grounding electrode or grounding electrode system installed in accrodance with 250.50 that gets you into 250.52, 250.53, 250.56, 250.66 and that is just hitting the high spots, no question seperate building you pound the ground rods

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Oliver

08-10-2005 08:17:51




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to time2plow, 08-09-2005 16:46:27  
It sounds to me like some inspectors actually know what they are looking at. I thought most of them didn't know which end of an extension cord to plug into the wall. That's my experience at least.



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paul

08-10-2005 05:10:20




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to time2plow, 08-09-2005 16:46:27  
Ground rods make sense, normal.

I do not understand the need to go from your 4 wire setup, back to a 3 wire setup & rely upon only the ground rods. That is how I understand you? Thought we all need 4 wires these days between subpannels.

--->Paul



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Can't even use my name

08-10-2005 10:10:49




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to paul, 08-10-2005 05:10:20  
To my understanding if you run the neutral and grounds parallel to each other than that bare ground wire can and will carry current acting like the sheathed neutral.



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Kevin Bismark

08-10-2005 17:00:11




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to Can't even use my name, 08-10-2005 10:10:49  
The ground wire back to the main panel will not carry any current at all unless there is a major short to ground at the sub panel or out to the devices, that is why they are isolated in the sub panel, seperate ground bus and neutral bus, and no bonding screw in the neutral bus, they are not connected and that is why there won"t be any current flow in the grounding conductor.



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MarkB_MI

08-10-2005 03:07:52




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to time2plow, 08-09-2005 16:46:27  
I'm pretty sure that you need to have the ground rods at the outbuilding to meet code. What I don't understand is why he insists that you disconnect the ground between your house and the pole barn. If you have a short between one of your legs and the equipment ground, you'll need enough current to fault the appropriate breaker. This could be 50 amps for a welder circuit, or even 100 amps if the short is inside the breaker panel. Depending on how good your ground is, it could be difficult to sink this much current to ground.

When I wired up my pole barn, I ran four wires from a service disconnect at the meter. Ground and neutral are connected at the disconnect and separate in the building. Although I had ground tied to my two yard hydrants at the pole barn, the inspector insisted that I add two ground rods as well.

I'm surprised the inspector didn't fault you for not having a separate service disconnect for the pole barn. Maybe I misunderstand your setup.

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Can't even use my name

08-09-2005 19:23:49




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to time2plow, 08-09-2005 16:46:27  
I just had our inspector out today to look at my wiring job. New house and went from meter base through garage foundation wall 26' to foundation commonwall and into basement then 6' to service panel. I bought 4 conductor wire because I was gonna put in a double throw switch for a generator but cost and unability to get exactly what I wanted nilled that idea. Anyways I had the bare and the neutral hooked to their respective lugs (which are on the same "bar") in both the meter base and the panel. Incorrect way of doing this. Inspector says you can't run the neutral and ground parallel with each other. Simple fix, unhook both ends and tuck back. Don't cut just in case I find a double throw switch which means I would need that ground wire. According to code you need two ground rods at least 6' apart coupled with #4 copper, which I have and that goes to one of the neutral/ground bars. Since I have only one panel I have to have the bond screw in... any other added sub panels off that would not have that screw in and all the grounds go on one of the ground bars not connected to the neutral bar and all the neutrals to the neutral bar. Then you have to ground those grounds with the rods and #4 wire. Confusing and I am not any kind of electrician and going off of memory of what I was just told so I can't guarantee anything but simply put I guess you can't run neutrals and grounds between two panels parallel to each other and consequently you have to ground stuff in the subpanel to a seperate bar and on their own ground rods. Sorry this is so long, just trying to help you understand some of the most impossible to interperite codes ever thought up.

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Replace #4 with #6

08-09-2005 19:25:55




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to Can't even use my name, 08-09-2005 19:23:49  



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Eaasy

08-09-2005 18:42:15




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to time2plow, 08-09-2005 16:46:27  
I had to do the same thing in Miochigan - 12 years ago. It wasn't the result of an inspection, it was because an electrictian friend recommended it. Easy.



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txgrn

08-09-2005 18:22:30




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to time2plow, 08-09-2005 16:46:27  
Don't bite the hand that feeds you. If you don't understand that I'll elaborate.

Mark



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Kevin Bismark

08-09-2005 17:57:40




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to time2plow, 08-09-2005 16:46:27  
are you sure he wasn"t talking about removing the bonding screw in your sub panel, the ground wire should be connected to a seperate ground bus in the sub panel and in the panel in the house the ground and neutral are bonded together, as for the 2 ground rods, the code say"s the ground rod shall have a resistance of 25 ohms or less or you shall drive another ground rod, as for connecting them with number 4 copper the code say"s that a number 6 copper is all that is required to connect a ground rod, the number 4 would be what you should have connected to a metal water pipe within 5 feet of where it enters the building

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time2plow

08-09-2005 18:22:54




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to Kevin Bismark, 08-09-2005 17:57:40  
the bonding screw is removed and I installed a seperate grounding bus in the sub panel. I can install the rods without any problem, and minimal expense, just never heard of this before. I was just curious as to why this is required. thanks



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Kevin Bismark

08-10-2005 19:29:48




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to time2plow, 08-09-2005 18:22:54  
What do you have for wire running between the two buildings?? are by chance the grounding and grounded, (ground and neutral) conductors both bare, or the neutral bare, if that is the case the inspector wouldn't let you isolate them in the sub panel he would make you use the 3 wire system bond and do the ground rods, don't want to have circulating currents flowing, just thought about that, hard to think of what to ask you with out being able to see what you have going on there...
Kevin

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buickanddeere

08-09-2005 22:09:47




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to time2plow, 08-09-2005 18:22:54  
You don't want the ground circuit carrying unbalanced neutral current instead of the neutral wire.



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Bus Driver

08-09-2005 16:57:37




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to time2plow, 08-09-2005 16:46:27  
Some jurisdictions have not yet adopted the 2005 NEC. I am in a hurry, but a quick look at the 2005 NEC Article 250.32(B)(1) indicates that your equipment grounding conductor is required as well as the driven grounding electrodes the inspector requires. All these must be electrically bonded.



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Kevin Bismark

08-10-2005 18:25:06




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to Bus Driver, 08-09-2005 16:57:37  
Yup, that's the right article, that is where it say's the grounding and grounded conductors have to be isolated and say's that the grounding conductor has to be sized off of 250.122, there are so many articles thay you can find that apply to this situation that I would have a headache writing them all down, have all I can do to make it through the day dealing with it at work, much less at home..... .

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arthur hostert

08-09-2005 20:24:33




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 Re: barn electrical question in reply to Bus Driver, 08-09-2005 16:57:37  
the ground rod's are there because you could sever all the wires except a live one and posible get injured for the lack of ground



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