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Question about double nuts

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Bernie in MA

07-27-2005 17:33:06

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Yeah, I have them. Now the question. My joints hurting keep me from tightening the double nuts on my mower so they won't loosen. Anybody ever put a lockwasher between them?

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JJS

08-01-2005 17:19:10

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to Bernie in MA, 07-27-2005 17:33:06

Are you tightening the double nuts properly? I am not saying you aren't, but I have seen many a person tighten the first nut then tighten the second against the first one, without holding the first. Thinking that this was good enough. The only way a jam (double)nut will hold properly, is to tighten the first nut to proper torque. Then tighten the second nut down against the first, while at the same time holding the first nut so it does not turn.
Just a thought. Joe

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vrickster

07-29-2005 15:36:23

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try safety washers in reply to Bernie in MA, 07-27-2005 17:33:06

Where I work we eliminated all lock washers and substituted safety washers. At work we call them Schnorr's after the manufacturer, Schnorr. These are available in both metric and std from Fastenall.
http://www.schnorr.com/

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MAC,IL

07-28-2005 06:24:45

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to Bernie in MA, 07-27-2005 17:33:06

If you got the room, drill thru the nut and shaft and use a small cotter pin. Always worked for me.

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Bernie in MA

07-28-2005 07:11:13

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to MAC,IL, 07-28-2005 06:24:45

Because of the convex seat under the nut it doesn't always tighten in the same spot and I'd have to get a longer square head bolt for 3 nuts. There aren't many of those available. Thanks anyway.

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Mike M

07-28-2005 05:38:27

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to Bernie in MA, 07-27-2005 17:33:06

Try 3 nuts ?

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Bernie in MA

07-28-2005 05:24:50

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to Bernie in MA, 07-27-2005 17:33:06

Thanks everybody. It's amazing how many answers some questions will stir up. These bolts hold a clamp arrangement that clamps to the 3-point arms to keep my 501 mower from swaying. The top hole under the nut is a slot thru a convex area, so a lockwasher is useless. I guess I'll just use a cheater pipe on the wrenches. The clamp has to be really tight on the arm.

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Bill WI

07-28-2005 08:22:59

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to Bernie in MA, 07-28-2005 05:24:50

Sounds like a flat washer or part missing under the nuts if I understand. Nuts won't hold on a slotted hole without a heavy flat washer under them.

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OldTimeFarmer

07-28-2005 10:22:31

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to Bill WI , 07-28-2005 08:22:59

Bill is correct. I have a 501 mower I run on an 861 Ford. The 3-pt bracket/clamps should have a large flat washer underneath. Tighten the nuts with a 12" Crescent wrench and it's worked for 47 years.

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Carol Martin

07-28-2005 05:11:16

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to Bernie in MA, 07-27-2005 17:33:06

OK: you probably wont believe me but this has worked for me.. had a bunch (6) 5/8 mounting bolts on my Cat track loader main frame.. Tried everything to keep them from loosening.. finally a Gentlemen with many years of experience on heavy equiptment came to my rescue.. He says Simple.. put a little silicone calulking compound on them before you install and they will stay there.. Been there for 5 years now and still tight..DON'T ask me how it works...

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Galen

07-28-2005 04:49:16

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to Bernie in MA, 07-27-2005 17:33:06

Spent quite a bit of time testing fastners. Lock washers only work when tensioned properly, and are useless under most conditions. Most times, they are useless, and cannot be reused. Putting one between a nut and "jam nut" will cause the jam nut to actually loosen. The best bet is Nyloc or castlenut/cotter key. You can also try the nuts that are slighty egg shaped. Another idea is to take a center punch and puch three side of the nut after you put it on - sometimes you can change the shape of the nut (out of round), making it harder to work loose.

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Vern-MI

07-28-2005 04:27:42

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to Bernie in MA, 07-27-2005 17:33:06

Try it and lets us know how it works. The feature you are trying to accomplish in any fastener joint is to keep the tension in the joint. The way this is done is to stretch the fastener like a rubber band and then not allow it to relax when subjected to the service use. Make sure you use a washer which is smooth not serrated on both sides as these serrations would brinell into the nut faces and cause loss of tension in the fastener joint. A hardened flat washer with smooth faces would probably also work. Also make sure that the adjoining nut faces are free from burrs and metal protusions, nicks and gouges, which would eventually crush and allow a fastener joint loss of tension. The thicker the washer the better. Good luck and let us know how well it worked.

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kraigWY

07-27-2005 22:42:09

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to Bernie in MA, 07-27-2005 17:33:06

Try safty wire, you can drill a tinny hole throug the nut with out touching the treaded part, then us safty wire to keep it from comming loose.

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NC Wayne

07-27-2005 19:34:01

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to Bernie in MA, 07-27-2005 17:33:06

Putting a lock washer between them makes double nutting them useless. I don't know the exact way to describe it but I'll try...Using two nuts together makes the chance of them coming off less due to the friction between the faces of the two nuts (one against the surface, and a one aginst each other) as well as between the threads of the nut and whatever it's on. Basically you've got 4 individual joints acting together to keep the nuts tight. A lock washer, when it works properly, is supposed to become tensioned when you tighten the nut and dig into both the nut and the surface it was tightened against to prevent it from backing off. It's a common thing to see done, but in reality using a lock washer and a flat washer together makes the lockwasher usless. If the nut tries to loosen the flat washer will not dig into the surface and can turn right along with the nut, because the lock washer locks the two of them together instead of the nut to the surface. That said if you use a lock washer between the two nuts you lose the friction lock between the two nuts in exchange for the "locking" action of the lock washer which is gonna try to keep the outer nut tight by digging into the inner nut. In this case if the outer nut decided to back off then the inner nut would be "locked" to it and would tend to try to back off also....and you'd still need to tighten the outer nut just as tight to keep it "locked" in place with the other nut. I understand what your talking about having to wrench a Nylock nut for a distance, that isn't any fun. Have you tried a internal/external star washer (one that has the serations both internally and externally) along with just a single nut? They tend to dig in and hold better, in many applications, than a regular lock washer because the grab on in multiple places around both the ID and OD of the fastener.. If you used one of them and also did like another post suggested and use some of the blue Locktite at the same time it might help you out some. Good luck.

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Billpa

07-27-2005 21:04:20

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to NC Wayne, 07-27-2005 19:34:01

Try a washer called cam lock they are great

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Jay (ND)

07-27-2005 19:21:36

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to Bernie in MA, 07-27-2005 17:33:06

I don't think a lockwasher will work very well, besides, they should only be used once. It sounds like these are nuts on bolts that are used for mounting the mower? If so, why not drill a hole in the bolt below the nut, and insert either a cotter pin or a clip in it? You should be able to only use one nut that way too.

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Eddie in MI

07-27-2005 19:04:09

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to Bernie in MA, 07-27-2005 17:33:06

Why not just put some blue thread lock on them? That way you can keep the double nuts...

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07-27-2005 17:40:17

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to Bernie in MA, 07-27-2005 17:33:06

Why not just use a ny-loc nut? They are a little more money but your joints won't hurt.

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Bernie in MA

07-27-2005 18:17:09

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to KB, 07-27-2005 17:40:17

They are fairly long bolts and I have to take the mower off to rake, away from an impact wrench. Ny-loc nuts have to be wrenched all the way. Thanks anyway.

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paul

07-27-2005 23:20:55

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to Bernie in MA, 07-27-2005 18:17:09

You need a good solid friction connection there. The lock washer between won"t work any better - actually I think it is worse - than just the 2 nuts. You need the force I"m afraid.

If you can"t get the 2 nuts tight enough to lock, and you can"t turn the Ny-loc either, you won"t get the lock washer tight enough either.

I assume this must be a bolt that works as a pin, and cannot tighten down but the 2 nuts are used to allow a pivoting of the bolt - from your description?

You might be able to work out a pin with a hole & a locking clip through it instead of the bolt & nuts, if nothing else works?

--->Paul

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Glen in TX

07-27-2005 23:50:33

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Re: Question about double nuts in reply to paul, 07-27-2005 23:20:55

Maybe use a castle nut with a cotter pin or clip.

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