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Electrical Service Entrance

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Little Ed

07-23-2005 04:10:00




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It looks like I am going to have to run my electrical service entrance across several floor joists to get to the electric panel. Should I drill through the joists,like running it through a stud wall, notch the bottom side of the joist and cover with a strip of metal, or can I just staple it to the sleeper around the perimeter?




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dr.sportster

07-24-2005 08:13:57




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Little Ed, 07-23-2005 04:10:00  
I have only seen what you are describing once in twenty five years and I beleive it failed inspection.Max distance from meter to panel used to say 18ft somewhere in the code.This was considered bad practice by most inspectors because [as said by Kevin and others]you now have unfused wire running in the residence.Probably a disconnect may now be required under the meterpan.I am just babbling because my grandson has my codebook which is 3 yrs outdated.Avoid extra work and check your idea with the inspector first.I remember doing this twice once wrong then adding a disconnect at meter to pass inspection.

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Kevin Bismark

07-23-2005 22:33:00




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Little Ed, 07-23-2005 04:10:00  
If you set the meter socket, come down with pipe and hit an LB then 90 into the top of the panel you are okay, but if you are going to snake further into the house you have to have those wires fused, so you can pick up a NEMA 3R fused disconnect switch and put it after the meter, alont side at the same height would look okay, some of the meter cans you can buy have fuses you can put in, think the ones I have used are made by mid-west, the FPE stuff is mostly junk and don"t use it at all, and don"t like to even touch it on service calls, why are you trying to run through the joists for the panel, don"t you have a good place to mount it right inside the house where the pipe would come in. If you are running a 100 amp the wires are number 4 copper minimum, if 200 amp 2/0 copper minimum, on the emt connecter in the panel from the meter you will put a grounding bushing on, and if 100 amp run at least a number 8 to the neutral bus and a number 6, without physical protection, to a ground rod, and a number 6 to the metal water pipe within 5 feet of where it comes in, if the grond rod had more than 25 ohms of resistance you shall drive an additional ground rod, if it"s a 200 amp you will run a number 4 copper from the grounding bushing to the neutral bus and number 6 to the ground rod with a number 4 going to the metal underground water pipe within 5 feet of where it enters the building and since this sounds like it"s your main panel you will install the bonding screw that they give you. I never use anything but copper wire unless it"s a big commercial job and they are trying to save money, keep the ground rods apart, I space them at least 8 feet apart and they don"t really do much good when they are driven right up next to the basement wall, keep them out about 6 feet, now on new houses we are required to tie to the rebar in the foundation for what they call a UFER ground. After you pull the wire drill a weep hole in the bottom of the LB and pack the thing with duct seal where the wires go into the house, and a plastic bushing on the connector where the pipe leaves the meter socket,and you will have the grounding bushing in the panel, if you put a fused disconnect switch you need plastic bushings on the connectors there also but I would use a bonding bushing there to make sure it was all tied together anything over a number 6 and anything in ridgid pipe has to be with a bushing, I have never put in a service with anything less than EMT and sometimes ridgid pipe. Use quality stuff so you only have to do it once, I use Square D QO stuff for houses, a lot better than most of the other stuff, at least the breakers trip when they are supposed to, just remember that the right wire size, grounding, bonding, raceway, and duct seal is a big part of this. If you are in doubt about anything find someone you know that know for sure how it has to be put in or it wll cost lot of money to do it 2 or 3 times..
kevin

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Little Ed

07-23-2005 12:52:25




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Little Ed, 07-23-2005 04:10:00  
Thanks for all the excellent advice. This site has the largest reserve of smart fellers that I will ever have access to. The electric service comes onto the property to a pole 30 feet from the house where there is a meter loop, a 200 amp main breaker in a distribution box, and then underground to the house. This will have the 200amp breaker at the pole and then a 200 amp breaker in the breaker box at the house. The box in the house is unfortunately at the far end from the pole. We are in a county where there is no building inspection.

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Mark - IN.

07-23-2005 22:13:30




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Little Ed, 07-23-2005 12:52:25  
If I recall, your main must be within 15' of the meter according to NEC. And believe must be a licensed electrician to make those connections by NEC as well. After the main, you can do it on your own, but are NEC rules on that as well. As the others said, trench and bury it to NEC.

You may not have inspectors in your area now, but might be when go to sell the house. Besides, want the family to be able to sleep comfortably and safely.

Mark

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Kevin Bismark

07-23-2005 22:55:38




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Mark - IN., 07-23-2005 22:13:30  
Never saw a 15 foot rule in the NEC in 20 years, they want it to be as close as possible as the wires are unfused, at least here in Minnesota you hit the overcurrent protective device as close as you can, if you want to run 5 or 6 feet you fuse them, the longest run I saw was one of the instructors houses in the apprenticeship program, they let him run 7 feet in ridgid pipe as there was no place to set the panel on the outside wall at all, the big problem is the fault current that is present in the wires, you get a transformer with a 5% impedence at 240 volts and it does lot more than you would think, I have seen it vaporize things you wouldn't thing would be possible I have seen emt connectors vaporized right out of panels

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Mark - IN.

07-24-2005 07:18:54




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Kevin Bismark, 07-23-2005 22:55:38  
Might not be a 15' rule, but seems to me in the last issue I had that I'd read that. Could be wrong, and it's long gone somewhere. Just tried to look up online, but takes too long.

I'm pretty sure though that it does say to the main, licensed electrician.

Most important thing of all, for a person that doesn't work with electrical, to look at a panal or wiring, may look simple enough, and initial thoughts might be that anyone can walk up with a bender and a screw driver and do that too. NOT SO in my book. I'm not a sparky, but there's reason you guys exist, and it's NOT to overcharge customers as some may think. I have plenty of respect for sparkies, work with them all the time. That main in that house might be rated at 100 or 200 amps, but the next one back towards the grid on the xfmr sure aint 100 or 200 amps. I was onsite a few years back when a guy got split from his wrist to about his kidneys, and burned his boots off too, all in about a second. He lived, but that's not a smell I'll ever forget. And leaving one of the power plants I frequently work at, is a sign on a fence "in memory of Greg..." one of my friends, a well trained, experienced sparky of about 20 years at the time, himself.

Inspectors or not, there's a reason for the NEC. But I don't need to tell you that, as a sparky you know better than I. Have a good day and work safe.

Mark

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Kevin Bismark

07-24-2005 18:04:47




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Mark - IN., 07-24-2005 07:18:54  
I was thinking that maybe what some of the guy's are thinking about is the 10 or 20 foot tap rule, some inspectors years ago used to let guy's use that for a service, but not many, and don't think that would fly around here now. Sure have to be careful, we had a guy in the local that got burned really bad setting a traffic signal pole a month ago, will be a while before he goes back to work, just enough induction to get enough voltage on the traffic signal pole that was 15 feet away from a power line, don't know what the voltage on it was but must have been at least 13,800 volt one to do that, wished I carried a camera with me to take pictures of some of the stuff I run across, people would never believe the power that is in some of the electrical equipment, have several friends that are lucky to be alive from the burns they got in explosions they were a little too close to when things blew, stuff is just gone, vaporised not much left sometimes. Good luck with you tractor project, started to work on the Massey Harris 20 again after a few months of no time to do it, had to make a frost plug Saturday, took a piece of steel close to the right thickness, cut a square piece in the band saw, welded a 3/8 bolt in the center and went to the lathe and got it close to the right diamater and then went to the press and dished it then made it the right diamanter and ground the bolt off and cleaned it up, it worked just great.
Kevin

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MarkB_MI

07-23-2005 13:41:09




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Little Ed, 07-23-2005 12:52:25  
If it's just a matter of getting from the pole to the far side of the house, it might be easier and cheaper to just trench around the house.



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buickanddeere

07-23-2005 16:19:03




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to MarkB_MI, 07-23-2005 13:41:09  
Trench has my vote too. Here is a "feed through transfer panel" to install after the meter base and before the house distribution panel. A 36 circuit transfer panel can also be had to install in the house.

WB2012DR Panel/Link�

The Panel/Link TWB includes a 200A main circuit breaker interlinked with a 30A - 125A generator breaker feeding a heavy-duty copper bus with feed-through lugs. The interlinked circuit breakers keep the generator isolated from the utility at all times, even with the deadfront removed. The TWB is suitable for service entrance and may be used as a main panel or feed-through to a sub-panel or main panel. The TWB has provision for 4/8 branch circuits and is ideal for applications requiring the entire service panel to be available for generator power.

Return to product list

MODEL TWB2012DR
MODEL DESCRIPTION Panel/Link
MAX. GENERATOR RUNNING WATTS 30000
PHASE Single
MAX. NUMBER 1" CIRCUIT BREAKER OPENINGS 4
MAX. NUMBER OF CIRCUITS USING TANDEM BREAKERS 8
MAX. UTILITY INPUT AMPS 200
MAX. GENERATOR INPUT AMPS 125
POWER INLET, NEMA None
WATTMETERS No
SHIPPING WEIGHT [lbs.] 37
DIMENSIONS H x W x D [inches] 38.25x14.25x4.5
CABINET TYPE, NEMA Outdoor

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Mark - IN.

07-23-2005 22:26:16




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to buickanddeere, 07-23-2005 16:19:03  
Hey Buick, off electrical topic. That Deere shop manual I paid the Deere parts guy $150? Was $150. I called that 800 number you posted, got some lady whom said was a publishing company, whom wanted my serial number. Figure they must do the Deere manuals. It didn't matter, I already bought and had it. She looked it up, Operators manual, $30, shop manual $150. I about died when you asked why I paid $150 for a $30 manual. It's good to know the Deere guy was honest.

Mark

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buickanddeere

07-24-2005 15:30:55




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Mark - IN., 07-23-2005 22:26:16  
Mark

I can't recall which machine of your's those manuals were needed for. Can you refresh my failing memory please. Deere must have changed policy on pricing. I bought a whack of manuals for everything in the late 90's/early 2000's. If memory serves they were all about the same price.Even for the 840's. I just bought some more CD parts, operators and service manuals for the 35,36 loaders, FB grain drill, 800 swather, 39 mower, 56 riding mower etc. And eveything was $30.00 per manual. Come to think of it they didn't ship my 415 plough manuals or I missed asking for them?

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Mark - IN.

07-24-2005 22:40:48




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to buickanddeere, 07-24-2005 15:30:55  
Hey Buick, this particular one was for a 950, a Yanmar wearing Deere green (Is about the only thing Deere about it). TM1192 printed 01AUG96. It's not that it's hard to work on, it's just that when something major goes, it's nearly impossible to find it. Aint like a real Deere, no matter what the Deere guy says. Helped a friend going through a divorce and liquidating per court order, and got that little guy that I sometimes think is the antichrist. Well, I've got the manual.

Mark

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Dixieland

07-23-2005 11:05:47




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Little Ed, 07-23-2005 04:10:00  
A service disconnect is required before the cable enters the structure per NEC. Drill your holes as near center of the joists as possible but the edge of the hole should be no less than 2" from bottom of the joists unless you install nail plates. You will also need a four conductor service cable from the outside service disconnect to the inside panel. Two ungrounded conductors (hot), one grounded conductor(neutral) and one grounding conductor(ground). Also be sure to use the proper connectors and bushings. If you use aluminum service cable (SER) be sure to apply Penetrox at connections.

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Can't even use my name

07-24-2005 16:59:18




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Dixieland, 07-23-2005 11:05:47  
Our electrical inspector told me that you don't need a service disconnect if you are less than 6' from meter to panel. Here is the interesting part. That 6' is measuring wire that is uncovered. With my particular setup he told me that I can put the meter base on the garage wall, bore a hole in the concrete wall about 2' away and run the wire in conduit 28' which will be burried when we backfill the garage and bore another hole in the garage/house common wall and go from there to the panel which is about 3'. So we are out of the ground a total of about 5' which is less that what codes requires a disconnect for. Figure that one out.

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Dixieland

07-24-2005 17:50:18




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Can't even use my name, 07-24-2005 16:59:18  
The applied wisdom of the NEC panel of contributers states that all of what you described here except for the last 5 feet is considered outside the building.



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buickanddeere

07-23-2005 10:27:09




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 Ronk, FPE or Reliance Controls in reply to Little Ed, 07-23-2005 04:10:00  
If you haven't purchased the meter base or service panel yet. Here is a good time to make your place worth more, handier and safer. Either install a meter base made by "Ronk" that has a generator transfer switch built in. Or install a service panel by "Reliance Controls" or FPE with the transfer switch built in. Where is the utility entrance, metering panel and distribution panel?



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Joe in Minnie

07-23-2005 07:09:33




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Little Ed, 07-23-2005 04:10:00  
I would think you have a Permit for this, right? I always ask the Inspector for his advise, he's the one who will inspect, but for me, I would put it in Conduit, which is the best way, If you ask a Licensed electrican, he would no doubt charge you for advise, so ask the Inspector when ever you are in doubt, I saved thousands of dollars by doing my own wiring, and the Inspector was a wonderful help to me, happy wiring my friend, Joe

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Vern-MI

07-23-2005 05:19:23




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Little Ed, 07-23-2005 04:10:00  
Do it right and put it in conduit. You can then run it just under the joist. Remember that at least every fourth ninety degree turn you need to put a pull box at the corner to facilitate pulling the wire. Put a little elephant snot on the wire to allow it to slide though a little easier.



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Big Mac

07-23-2005 05:01:02




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Little Ed, 07-23-2005 04:10:00  
Little Ed,When you say your service cable.What size service,100,200 Amp? if its"s a 200, you are going to have a b***h of a time feeding the cable through the holes. Is this coming directly from your meter? If so, does your meter have a main circuit breaker? If no main breaker, all that wire you are running through your joist is not protected. If anything should cut into the wire such as a squirrel,a dumb plumber etc, you are in for a very large explosion followed by a fire. The other solution if you have no main breaker, is to install the wire in conduit. Sorry for being so long winded, but after 35 yrs. as an electrician, I know that if there is a slight chance of it happening, it will. Murphy"s Law.

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Mark - IN.

07-23-2005 06:12:36




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Big Mac, 07-23-2005 05:01:02  
Good morning Big. Doesn't the national electric code also say main breaker have to be within 15' of the meter? And needs a licensed sparky to make that connection? I guess my point is, if that's true, before does anything, probably best to just have the licensed guy who's going to make the connection take a look anyway. Like yourself, he's probably done many a few and could make a suggestion or two that might save Ed some trouble. Just a thought.

Personally, I think have the panal on the other side of the wall from the meter, poke through the wall, and into the panal. Short, short, short. Short.

Mark

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Slowpoke

07-23-2005 23:48:12




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Mark - IN., 07-23-2005 06:12:36  
Hi Mark-IN... Will that work on a steel sided building? The outside meter socket (underground feed), with an LB out the top, thru the siding and into the back of the main breaker panel? Or will the feed have to come in at the top of the main breaker panel? On another problem, I bought a meter socket at a yard sale from a "retiring electrician" who assured me it was an underground feed. When I got home and cleaned the dust & dirt off it and managed to open the cover, I found a tag that said "overhead feed". Two of the four 11/16-16 aluminum screws that held the cables were "welded" in the threaded holes. I managed to get one out, but the other had to be drilled out. There is no sign of arcing or heating. Do you have any idea why the "welding" occured? And since it's overhead feed, I don't suppose there is a legal way to convert it to UF, is there???
Thanks.

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Kevin Bismark

07-24-2005 18:17:57




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Slowpoke, 07-23-2005 23:48:12  
You find connections that are loose, especially with alu wire and you will find sometimes that instead of seeing arc spots it just re makes the connections and kind of spot welds itself to make the connection, see this a lot in trailer house pedestals, have a set of jaws for a meter in the van I changed out a few weeks ago that were welded.



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MarkB_MI

07-23-2005 04:29:05




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Little Ed, 07-23-2005 04:10:00  
I think the preferred way would be to drill through the joists. Drill holes no bigger than necessary for the cable to pass through easily. Make your holes as close to the end of the joist and as close to the centerline of the joist as possible. This way you should not significantly weaken the joist.

Notching a joist will significantly weaken it, unless the notch is close to the end.



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RustyFarmall

07-23-2005 07:22:13




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to MarkB_MI, 07-23-2005 04:29:05  
It seems that the electricians like to drill holes wherever necessary to make their work easier. The carpenters do not like this logic, a hole drilled through a floor joist compromises the integrity of the entire house.



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Can't even use my name

07-23-2005 09:55:47




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to RustyFarmall, 07-23-2005 07:22:13  
Drilling a hole doesn't really compromise the strength of the joist but notching it will dramatically. Now if you drill a 6" hole in a 10" board that may be a bit serious but a 2" won't really make much difference.



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steveormary

07-23-2005 10:39:18




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 Re: Electrical Service Entrance in reply to Can't even use my name, 07-23-2005 09:55:47  
Rusty;

Dont want to start a war but plunbers and tinners are worse. I never liked to rough in a house untill the plumber and tinner were done.
And the framing was complete. steveormary



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