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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

How many Joules?

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Slowpoke

06-21-2005 01:22:22




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I have been looking at surge protectors for the TV, VCR, and DVD player combined. The information on the packages for 250-500 Joules say for "small kitchen appliances, fax machines, copiers". For 750 to 1100 Joules: "entry level computers, printers, tvs". "Professional computers, home theaters, etc", go up to 3300 Joules. No one company makes the complete range, so how do you determine what amount of Joules is the right amount? It can't be based on amp draw because they are all limited to 15 amps. Instantaneous current is from 10,000 to 30,000 amps, and if I remember correctly, 330 clamping volts. It seems the more one pays the higher the "insurance" if the equipment is damaged. And they all say to connect to a grounded, 3 prong outlet. I have NO grounded, 3 prong outlet, and all the equipment has 2 prong plugs. So will my equipment be protected using a 3 to 2 adapter at the wall receptical if I can ever figure out what to buy???

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buickanddeere

06-24-2005 11:31:26




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Slowpoke, 06-21-2005 01:22:22  
Do you have a well or is that water pipe some kind of metal. And where does that water pipe run to and from? A joule is defined as 1 watt second if memory serves.



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Slowpoke

06-25-2005 00:39:03




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to buickanddeere, 06-24-2005 11:31:26  
It's city water through 1962 galvanized pipe. I think the latest code prohibits grounding to water pipes, only to two 10' rods, 6' apart at a maximum distance from the main power panel.
Probably because pipe joints can corrode and the grounding path will be lost.



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Gary in Geneva

06-22-2005 06:48:22




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Slowpoke, 06-21-2005 01:22:22  
You need to have a functioning safety bond wire at the outlet for the plug in surge protector not to become a safety hazard.

You also need a GOOD earth ground. That old ground rod and loose wires won�t provide a good path for the energy to travel in. Lighting energy is usually high frequency energy, so it behaves more like Radio Frequency energy from a transmitter than regular AC or DC power. This means that in the earth bounding system there should be no sharp bends to the wires, large conductors, clean and tight connections, etc.

You really need at least two different suppressors on a home. The first one is rated for location C or whole house. This is normally at the main service entrance. These devices are designed to handle large currents and typically have a clamping voltage in the 500V � 800V range and are typically in the $40 - $80 range.

The second suppressor that is needed is for location A or point of use. The most common is the plug in surge suppressor. These are designed to see a much smaller amount of energy than the location B suppressors.

The most important rating on a plug in surge suppressor is the clamping voltage. The IEEE-1449 Transient Voltage Surge Suppressor test that surge suppressors are rated with list the best clamp voltage possible at 330V line to line and 330V line to ground. There are many suppressors that have a 330V � 330V rating in the $5 - $50 range. These devices are usually designed to suppress many small spikes, or one or two larger ones before that need to be replaced.

I recommend that most people purchase several of the plug in suppressors. Due to the frequency of the surge energy it may not prorogate down the different runs of wire in the home the same. Some outlets could see almost no surge energy, and others could see the bulk of the surge energy that entered the system.

The purpose of the suppressor is to provide a path around the device that is being protected. They can shunt the energy to or from the earth ground, across the line and can convert it to heat. The goal is to dissipate the energy before it can damage or destroy the devices you are trying to protect. The more suppressors you have the better the suppression should be.

This link has a lot more information:
Link


For something a bit more technical:
Link

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Slowpoke

06-22-2005 08:52:28




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Gary in Geneva, 06-22-2005 06:48:22  
There are NO ground rods in this area of homes. I think the new code requires 2 rods at 6' apart when upgrading. The ony grounding in my house is the telephone box to a water pipe. I'm not aware of any damaging lighting strikes in this area in the 45 years I've been here. That's probably why no one here is concerned about the problem. Of course, that doesn't mean it can't happen. I'll check out the whole house suppressor and thanks for your input.

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RayP(MI)

06-21-2005 16:38:14




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Slowpoke, 06-21-2005 01:22:22  
Let's face it Lightning is like the 800lb ape at the zoo ... Where does he go? Anywhere he wants!
No matter what arrestors you get, you'll never survive a direct hit. I've had stuff that wasn't even plugged in destroyed. You can only hope to protect from minor hits, and you'll get about what you pay for. Best bet is to start with competent equipment properly installed on your breaker box, and then back that up with whatever surge absorbers you can on the individual instruments. Be aware that arrestors get weaker, and become defective with every surge, so you should repalce periodically, depending on what your individual systems sees.

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dr.sportster

06-21-2005 13:50:58




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Slowpoke, 06-21-2005 01:22:22  
Instead of spending money on this item that will blow apart[from an actual strike] with the rest of your electrical equipment why dont you have an electrician install a new cable to the outlet you want to protect back to the main panel with a good grounding conductor and heavier neutral for any harmonics that may be causing problems now.In a lightning strike that little 15 amp surge protector will do nothing but let out the smoke.Somewhere I have seen a chart on lightning strikes per area.You might not even need this.

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Bill-KCKs

06-21-2005 13:01:43




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Slowpoke, 06-21-2005 01:22:22  
I'll add in my $0.02 to this thread. A good spike protector will have protection devices from hot-to-ground, hot-to-neutral, and neutral-to-ground. While they won't provide full protection on an ungrounded 2-prong outlet, they will provide SOME from the hot-to-neutral protector. Better than nothing.

In this era of electronic devices, everyone should have a surge protector in the service entrance panel. There are protectors that plug-in like a breaker or there are wired-in versions. Square-D, Joslyn, PolyPhaser, and others make the wired in versions. It pays to have both wired-in whole-house protection and plug-in protectors.

Lightning protection can become quite complicated. PolyPhaser has lots of info on their website about lightning protection and grounding.

While protecting the power lines, don't forget to add protectors to the telephones and the cable TV/satellite/antenna lead.

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Bill-KCKs

06-21-2005 13:13:10




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 PolyPhaser in reply to Bill-KCKs, 06-21-2005 13:01:43  
I'll add a link to PolyPhaser. Look under Tech Info for more info than you ever wanted to know about lightning protection.....



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Jay (ND)

06-21-2005 07:30:35




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Slowpoke, 06-21-2005 01:22:22  
In my house, I had only 2 prong outlets as well. If you removed the cover, you could see the ground crimped to the side of the metal box. As my outlets wore out, and as necessary, I replaced them with grounded outlets, and moved the ground to the ground screw.



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Slowpoke

06-21-2005 09:04:11




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Jay (ND), 06-21-2005 07:30:35  
The house was built in '62 so I have Bakelite boxes and 14-2 non metalic cable without ground.



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Jay (ND)

06-21-2005 10:33:24




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Slowpoke, 06-21-2005 09:04:11  
Thats same year mine was built - I guess my electrician over-wired mine - glad he did.



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tech4

06-21-2005 06:56:20




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Slowpoke, 06-21-2005 01:22:22  
Site below will tell you more about Joules than you will ever want to know. If you do not have a grounded recpt. NO Strip will properly protect your system because the principle of the strip is to bypass the over voltage or surge to GROUND. With an open ground then there is no place for the surge to go except to the equipment. If your recpts. are in BX or other armored cable then you could install grounded recpts. with ground connected to armored metal (if grounded). I think if I was you and in old house without ground that I would unplug all sensitive devices when not in use especially in summer with thunder storms.

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Slowpoke

06-21-2005 10:00:44




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to tech4, 06-21-2005 06:56:20  
tech4, disregard the reply below. I tried, but wasn't able to delete it. Most of the thunder storms here occur November thru March. Maybe no rain from late May to October. I think they call it the Golden State because everything turns a golden brown in summer. I'll have to see about getting a grounding wire to the receptical. Project #1527 on the list.



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Vern-MI

06-21-2005 07:18:46




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to tech4, 06-21-2005 06:56:20  
Some of the available suppressors offer 150 volt clamping. Clamping voltage is the maximum amount of voltage that a surge protector will allow through itself before it will suppress the power surge. When the device reaches its clamping voltage, it blocks any further current from flowing through the device and into a computer system or other electronic device.

If you are using a modem then make sure the phone line is also protected.

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Slowpoke

06-21-2005 09:39:47




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Vern-MI, 06-21-2005 07:18:46  
Vern, a good site for an explaination. I don't remember seeing a protector for digital satellite in the store. Maybe the $50 ones.



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Vern-MI

06-21-2005 12:31:56




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Slowpoke, 06-21-2005 09:39:47  
Tripplite has a surge protector rated at 140 clamping volts. It costs about $55 from Tiger direct.



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Vern-MI

06-21-2005 12:20:19




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Slowpoke, 06-21-2005 09:39:47  
Here is another site which explains the internals of the surge protector. It also mentions the 150 volt clamping protectors using the metal oxide varistors between the hot and ground, the hot and the neutral and the neutral to ground. You can see how they drain the high voltage to ground with the varistors.

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Slowpoke

06-21-2005 09:31:07




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Vern-MI, 06-21-2005 07:18:46  
Thanks tech4, a good site and an explanation in simple terms. I don't remember seeing any protectors for digital satellite at the store.



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buickanddeere

06-21-2005 06:09:53




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Slowpoke, 06-21-2005 01:22:22  
Joules is a metric rating of power per unit time. The same is imperial watts per hour. I'll have to dig around for the conversion , I can't remember stuff like that any more. It's just a rating of how much instantanious surge/spike energy can absorbed without damage.



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jackal5

06-21-2005 12:44:39




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to buickanddeere, 06-21-2005 06:09:53  
BandD: joule= N*m = work(energy), power = work(energy)/time

Watt = N*m/sec = J/sec



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Anthony

06-21-2005 05:44:22




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Slowpoke, 06-21-2005 01:22:22  
Sometimes, if the wiring is with BX you will pick up a ground through the armored cable by connecting the tab on the adapter to the screw that holds the outlet cover plate on. Get yourself one of those 3-prong testers with the colored lights and plug it into the adapter. It will show the presence or lack of ground and if the neutral and hot wires are switched.



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Doyle Alley

06-21-2005 05:22:30




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Slowpoke, 06-21-2005 01:22:22  
Talk to your electric company. Many of them have a program where they install a whole-house surge protector at the main box. If you don't have the proper grounding in your outlets, that may be the only way to go.



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Slowpoke

06-21-2005 10:12:04




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Doyle Alley, 06-21-2005 05:22:30  
D-A, I have 100 amp service with no problems running a welder, electric stove, etc. I'll bet the power company will have me upgrade to 200 amp service at my expense before they do anything, also at my expense. They are now trying to get approval from the Public Utillities Commission to replace all old meters with electronic ones and charge useage by time-of-day. And get rid of the meter readers.

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Ralph, Ohio

06-21-2005 04:49:48




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Slowpoke, 06-21-2005 01:22:22  
As the number of joules goes up, so do the level of protection and the cost of the protective device. So you get the appropriate unit for what you want to protect. In other words, it doesn't make sense to buy a $50 protector for a $20 clock radio! However for a $2000 computer setup it might be worth spending $100 for a better protector.

None of these will work correctly without a GOOD ground. The older 3 prong to 2 prong AC adapters had a metal tab on the side where you could hookup a ground wire to a well casing, ground rod, etc.

Even if the device to be protected has only a 2 wire cord you still need a ground on the protector because the purpose of the protector is to send any spike or surge energy to ground before it can damage the equipment.

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MLP

06-21-2005 04:14:19




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Slowpoke, 06-21-2005 01:22:22  
You will not be fully protected with out a ground. They are wired hot to ground neutral to ground and hot to neutral.
You can use any of them on any thing that does not exceed the rating. In other woods you can use the 3300 joules strip for a clock radio it just cost a bit more for the strip. I believe that the insurance will only pay replacement cost any ways. I do not think that they will pay $10,000 for a clock radio.

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Slowpoke

06-21-2005 08:58:59




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to MLP, 06-21-2005 04:14:19  
I have seen the "insurance" anywhere from $35,000 to $400,000.



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larry in tn

06-21-2005 17:31:13




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 Re: How many Joules? in reply to Slowpoke, 06-21-2005 08:58:59  
Buy a DITEK suppressor at you local electrical supply dealer. It is about the size of a cigarette package. It mounts in the service breaker box. Very simple three wire hook-up. Remember to hook-up neut/white wire first. Protects the entire house and it really works. Cost under $40.00. Self reseting. Last forever. I've installed dozen or so. Never a call back.
Larry



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