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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

O/T Discharging a capacitor

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Wayne in TX

05-23-2005 10:28:50




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I have seen in several manuals on appliance repair warnings about discharging capacitors. What are they? How do you discharge them?




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Wayne in TX

05-24-2005 07:00:37




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 Re: O/T Discharging a capacitor in reply to Wayne in TX, 05-23-2005 10:28:50  
Thanks --- I appreciate the advice/knowledge that you guys share.

Wayne



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Mike M

05-24-2005 06:04:36




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 Re: O/T Discharging a capacitor in reply to Wayne in TX, 05-23-2005 10:28:50  
Automotive types --You just hand them to a co worker. Gets them every time. LOL



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dr.sportster

05-24-2005 16:59:34




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 Re: O/T Discharging a capacitor in reply to Mike M, 05-24-2005 06:04:36  
Mike,No offense but any prank involving electricity is a bad idea.It takes very little to stop the heart or throw it out of wack.Capacitors have killed more than one person.



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T_Bone

05-24-2005 06:04:17




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 Re: O/T Discharging a capacitor in reply to Wayne in TX, 05-23-2005 10:28:50  
Hi Wayne,

Since no one has told you what it feels like to get hit with a hot capactior, I will. I was a controls specilist so that ment working on "live" charged circuits all the time so it was imparitive to look over and locate all the componets before sticking in your "hand".

I'm working on a refrigeration condensening unit wearing a metal watch band on my left hand that I never use for this type of work. I couldn't reach the componet I'm wanting so I reached in with my left hand and just inside the cabinet opening, BAM I got nailed with high voltage AC.

The unit mfg had hidden a condensor fan run capacitor under the unit top and my watch band shorted out the "live" capactior, 5mfd 370v. That's a fairly small capacitor.

I got really lucky that day that all it did was burn a hole in my watch band and 2nd degree burn around my wrist where the watch band was touching my skin. Had the capactior not burned a hole in the watch band thus letting me fall backwards it would have killed me.

Notice, I put "hand" in quotation marks for a reason. NEVER use more than ONE hand at a time while working on live circuits. With GODS help, thats the only thing that saved me that day.

T_Bone

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Mattlt

05-24-2005 06:08:04




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 Re: O/T Discharging a capacitor in reply to T_Bone, 05-24-2005 06:04:17  
That's why you'll see many electricians put one hand in their back pocket when they're working in a panel.

Good advice.



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MarkB_MI

05-23-2005 19:13:22




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 Re: O/T Discharging a capacitor in reply to Wayne in TX, 05-23-2005 10:28:50  
Capacitors (or condensors) storage energy as an electric field. A leyden jar is an example of a capacitor.

Most capacitors in electronic or automotive system are small and are unlikely to present any danger. Larger capacitors, such as those used on power supplies for electronics or on capacitor start/run motors, are hazardous if they are installed in such a way that they can't discharge. (For example, if the capacitor is in series with a switch.) These sorts of capacitors are generally metal cylinders an inch or more in diameter.

Large capacitors that have been hooked up to line voltage then disconnected (such as starter capacitors for motors) may have enough voltage on them to electrocute you. Or they may have no voltage, since line voltage cycles at 60 cycles per second.

DC power supply capacitors are a greater danger, especially those for high power amplifiers. They can have 100 volts or more on them, and store enough power to do some real damage if discharged. If they are properly connected, usually a resistor is connected across the capacitors terminals to discharge it. If the discharge resistor is damaged or disconnected, a large power supply capacitor can be very dangerous.

The real dangerous capacitors are those used in power distribution for power factor correction. They are quite large (store a lot of energy), and are generally used at dangerous voltages. You should never mess with one of these if you don't know what you're doing.

Note that a good capacitor can pick up static charges if it isn't connected to some sort of load or short circuit. Treat all large capacitors as charged unless you know otherwise.

The safest way to discharge a capacitor is with a several thousand ohm resistor. Directly shorting a charged capacitor will draw an arc.

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mrunion

05-23-2005 18:38:05




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 Re: O/T Discharging a capacitor in reply to Wayne in TX, 05-23-2005 10:28:50  
Discharging some large capacitors -- like the ones in a TV set -- can MELT the tip of a screwdriver. Be careful!



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Fawteen

05-23-2005 17:23:46




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 Re: O/T Discharging a capacitor in reply to Wayne in TX, 05-23-2005 10:28:50  
The caps you need to worry about are electrolytic caps. They're usually a metal can with two or more spade type terminals sticking out of them on insulated posts. Those suckers can hold a charge for a LONG time. In an appliance, they'd typically be used as start capacitors for motors. The other major applicaton for electrolytics would be as filter capacitors in AC-to-DC power supplies.

Unless you KNOW the circuit is designed to discharge the cap when the power is turned off, you must assume it to be charged, and also assume it will bite HARD if you get yer meathooks across the terminals.

Unless you KNOW what voltages and capacities you're working with, discharging them by shorting across the terminals or from terminals to ground is not a good idea. At the least you could (as others mentioned) damage a circuit (particularly if IC chips are involved) at worst you could weld a screwdriver to the chassis and get knocked on yer butt.

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Bob

05-23-2005 21:28:16




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 Re: O/T Discharging a capacitor in reply to Fawteen, 05-23-2005 17:23:46  
And, don't forget what's probably the most lethal capacitor of all, in the consumer environment, the large oil-filled high voltage capacitor in a microwave oven... these operate at 6000 to 10,000 volts! And they're feed by a power supply capable of cooking a ten-pound turkey!

Having the correct service manual AT HAND and understanding what it says is probably the best advice for safety, BEFORE attempting ANY repairs to an appliance, or other line-voltage device.

If you don't have access to a repair manual AND the knowledge to understand it, have a pro do the repairs! The life you save may be your own!

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Gerald J.

05-23-2005 20:30:07




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 Re: O/T Discharging a capacitor in reply to Fawteen, 05-23-2005 17:23:46  
Its not the electrolytic capacitors that hold a charge. Its the paper capacitors and those are the ones that you describe in the rectangular or round case with two slip on terminals. The can hold a charge for weeks at a time unless they have a discharging resistor built in. And they can recharge after you have discharged them with an external resistor or a screwdriver because the quick discharge bleeds off the charge on the plates but the dielectric can remain polarized and build the voltage back up.

Gerald J.

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Kevin2

05-23-2005 16:22:00




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 Re: O/T Discharging a capacitor in reply to Wayne in TX, 05-23-2005 10:28:50  
Most capacitors trickle their charge down in anywhere from 5 seconds to 5 hours, so the simple answer is to unplug the appliance and work on it later...



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Joe in MN

05-23-2005 17:41:26




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 Re: O/T Discharging a capacitor in reply to Kevin2, 05-23-2005 16:22:00  
Kevin, YOU can work on a electrical system if you want with out shorting out a Cap. it's your life, but for others who want to live a healthy life, simply short it out with a insulated wire or screwdriver from terminal to terminal. Caps are just like batteries, only they hold AC electric, and that's a killer, so short them out when ever you work around Caps. they NEVER NEVER discharge them selves.....

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txgrn

05-23-2005 19:48:29




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 Re: O/T Discharging a capacitor in reply to Joe in MN, 05-23-2005 17:41:26  
Joe my man; the discharge mechanism is referred to as "dielectric leakage" and the charge does move back to the original plate by leaking thru the dielectric, hence discharging themselves.

Now the converse of that is dielectric storage where a capacitor can be discharged only to come back later to find it whacking you. That's why you find high voltage capacitors with little wires across the terminals; especially mica ones.

The better the dielectric constant, the lesser of the first axiom and the greater the second axiom.

The bad boys are DC cause the diodes block the discharging unless a bleader resistor is put across the terminals. In AC circuits, there are usually other reactive components (coils, induct ors, transformers) that allow for discharge once power is removed.

Mark

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Joe in MN

05-24-2005 04:39:11




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 Re: O/T Discharging a capacitor in reply to txgrn, 05-23-2005 19:48:29  
Your right about the leakage, but it's sooooo slow that it takes years to leak, that's not my point though, just to be safe, not knowing how OLD the Cap is, just short it out, for your own safety, Be Safe, Not Sorry, is the key to a healthy life, unless you don't care, just touch it, and take your chances..... thanks for your opinion, you got my!....have a good'n



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txgrn

05-26-2005 18:53:56




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 Re: O/T Discharging a capacitor in reply to Joe in MN, 05-24-2005 04:39:11  
I used to build high voltage assemblies for a living. Mica was the capacitor of choice. I learned about this dielectric absorption the hard way, then read up on the facts to see what happened to me.

We had a box we would discard old capacitors into (for whatever reason) and one day we were experimenting and needed some more caps. I stuck my hand in the box to stir up the contents, looking for a specific value.....never again. The C value was in pf but the voltage rating was in the 10's of kv. I got zapped with something between "dc and light". Only thing that saved my doodley was the fact that they were pf caps, not 100's of mf and that it was absorption, not rated voltage.

Mark

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Joe in MN

05-27-2005 05:31:33




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 Re: O/T Discharging a capacitor in reply to txgrn, 05-26-2005 18:53:56  
Yes Mark, You got it right, I am a electronic technician and high voltage electrician "retired" and I'v seen "stuped electricians" work on high voltage equipment forgetting to short out the caps, and then, "bingo" time to take a doctor brake to get your heart settled down. these guys who think that a cap will be safe after a long time, is just taking a losing bet for life. a Capacitor is just like a battery only AC value, does a battery lose it's power just sitting there? will if you wait for a many years it just might, but be safe, not sorry, and short it out. Ya'll have a good'n..... ...Joe

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Steve (Magnolia, TX)

05-23-2005 11:24:49




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 Re: O/T Discharging a capacitor in reply to Wayne in TX, 05-23-2005 10:28:50  
A capacitor is an electronic component that is designed for 'cleaning up' an AC signal (it appears as a short {aka a straight wire} to AC and an open to DC). A capacitor can (and will) build up a charge and hold it for quite some time.
Depending on the value of the capacitor and the circuitry in which it was installed, the charge can vary from a tingle to instantaneous death (if you were to discharge it accross certain vital portions of your body).

HTH
Steve

BTW... How do you discharge them? If it is still part of an operable circuitry, it's best left to professionals, as the discharge (or discharge method) can cause failure of other, connected, electronic components.

If the capacitor is NOT connected to any other circuitry, you can short the leads together (there should be 2 of them) with a screwdriver, etc.

However, to the uninitiated, they are best left alone...
My $.02

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Big Jim

05-23-2005 22:29:34




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 Re: O/T Discharging a capacitor in reply to Steve (Magnolia, TX), 05-23-2005 11:24:49  
If you are dealing with capacitors installed in equipment, the only safe thing to do is to follow the instructions in the service manual. If you don"t have the book, leave the equipment alone. I recently looked at the manual on my plasma cutter. It details how to build and insulate a heavy-duty resistor to safely discharge the capacitors it uses. Any other method could be dangerous, possibly even fatal.

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