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How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter?

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ed welsh

04-09-2005 22:33:57




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A local shop says he can convert a 24 in to a 12 with some insulated brush holders. How is this done? JD 4010D




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ScottP

04-10-2005 09:17:48




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to ed welsh, 04-09-2005 22:33:57  
Ed
You can run your 24 volt starter on 12 volts with out changing the brush holder. When I rebuild motors for 48v, 36v, and 24v, forklifts I run them on the bench using 6 volts off their battery when I seat the motor brushes and polish the armature.
If you run your 24 volt starter off 12 volts you will only have about half the power. Which could make it stall on a hard starting cold day. A 24v motor is wound diffrent than a 12 volt battery.

Scott

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buickanddeere

04-10-2005 07:08:13




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to ed welsh, 04-09-2005 22:33:57  
If you were going to hack up a perfectly good 24V system. The starter does not have to even come off the engine or have the brush holders changed. Why are you converting a system that has worked for 43+ years? Most conversions seem to be up from 6V to 12V. You are going the opposite way,down?



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Jon H

04-10-2005 12:41:03




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to buickanddeere, 04-10-2005 07:08:13  
If that 24V system was perfectly good,he would not be wanting to "hack it up" as you say. The reality is that if that 24V tractor had any impliments that put a 15 plus amp 12V accessory load on it,Then it likley has destroyed 43 sets of batteries in those 43 years. That awfull 24V electrical system was the most shamefull part of an otherwise pretty good old tractor.If Deere had spent another $10 on the tractor for a proper series/parallel switch,instead of that goofy floating ground system that with any 12V acessory load had one battery undercharged and sulfated to death and the other one overcharged to the to the point of cooking in its own fluids. Replace that stupid 24V starter and generator with a 12V alternator and starter,so the tractor can have a reliable electrical system that is easy to start charge,boost and 10 year battery life with any 12V accessory load.

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buickanddeere

04-10-2005 21:15:30




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to Jon H, 04-10-2005 12:41:03  
The use of a series/parallel switch for 12V run and 24V start would have been better. As a kid dad had a 24v 3020 for three years and it never gave a monents problem. Great tractor to start in cold weather too. The 12V 4000JD that followed it was no go without pre-heating when near freezing temps. The biggest problem was tinkers trying to fix the system and not understanding load balancing. Or that two differnt rating 12V batteries in series are a failure looking for a place to happen. As some as somebody added one extra light or used the lights with one lamp blown out. Then the batteries were unbalanced. Of course the number of voltage regulators that were set via by guess and by golley without using a voltmeter are a majority. Then there those farmers who only checked battery electrolyte level. After the battery failed to hold a charge. Slow charging on a system can also be caused by a 36 plus year old "V" pulley on the generator. Worn by the belt and dust from the air.Along with a glazed belt. Belt can be as tight as a fiddle string and still slip. Some people get the 24V system changed just because they are scared by something they don't understand and don't want to learn about.

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jddriver

04-13-2005 06:53:45




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to buickanddeere, 04-10-2005 21:15:30  
Define tinkers



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jdemaris

04-10-2005 20:22:55




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to Jon H, 04-10-2005 12:41:03  
I agree. I was working on the Deere 24 volt cranking, split 12 neg & 12 pos. system when it was new. We were sent to many Deere service schools trying to stay ahead of all the problems with the system. Deere hired AC Delco to custom-design the system for them. Someone had a screw loose in their head. First of all, the 24 volt components have smaller gauge wire than 12 volt components, and thus burn up easier when overheated (and/or undervolted). That is why they are not backwards compatible. 12 volts works well on a 6 volt starter, and 24 volts works well on a 12 volt starter, etc. - but not the other way around. The other BIG problem Deere had with the split system is the starter motor had to be isolated, i.e., groundless. Once it got some brush dust inside of it, it would slowly start to ground and cause mayhem in the system. We pulled off many, just cleaned them up, put them back on, and they'd work - well I won't say fine, but at least as "good as new." Deere had other tractors with straight 24 volt systems that worked well. My Allis Chalmers HD6 also has a sraight 24 volt system that has been fine. Only drawback it parts are a lot more expensive for the 24 volt components since they are not in high demand. On a slightly different note, the U.S. military still uses straight 24 volt systems on just about all their stuff. I just converted a few Chevy diesel pickup trucks back to 12 volts that came from the military. Starter, alternator, and injection pump solenoid were all 24 volts.

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txgrn

04-10-2005 01:41:07




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to ed welsh, 04-09-2005 22:33:57  
The 24 volt system uses a + connected and - connected 12 v battery to arrive at 24 volts. To get the starter to cooperate, the return line, that is grounded to the starter case in 6 and 12 v applications, has to be insulated from ground so as to not short out the battery connected to that side.

Now the actual rating of the starter could still be 12v so you would be running twice the amperage thru it than you would do normally.

But:

1. I know for a fact that most 12v upgrades (from 6v in other tractor types) do not include the starter, meaning people are still using the 6v starter (at twice the normal amperage) successfully (I am).

2. Your time on the starter is usually much shorter as the starter spins the engine over approaching twice the speed of normal meaning the engine starts easier and faster. So the starter doesn't have time to overheat (much) with the extra wattage.

Mark

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TomTX

04-10-2005 03:25:03




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to txgrn, 04-10-2005 01:41:07  
Mark, you say that a 6 volt starter when run from a 12 volt battery is run at "at twice the normal amperage". Do you mean twice the normal voltage? Or an I confused again?



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txgrn

04-10-2005 06:29:23




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to TomTX, 04-10-2005 03:25:03  
Well, when you run an induction motor you develop a counter EMF which acts as resistance and you have the dc resistance of the wire.

(This counter EMF is why you burn out motors at stall speed. With the rotor not turning you can't develop that resistance and with all the excessive current you exceed the temp rating of the motors insulation. )

With double the voltage applied, the current would increase 2x with the dc resistance of the wire alone, but the counter EMF would increase somewhat (maybe not 2x), due to the increased current which would/should keep the current to something less than 2x.

Mark

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Joe(TX)

04-18-2005 14:40:51




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to txgrn, 04-10-2005 06:29:23  
Actually you have it wrong. It would be half the amperage. Motor power is in watts, volts times amps equal watts. That is why when you have low vaoltage your current goes up.



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Gerald J.

04-10-2005 08:27:41




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to txgrn, 04-10-2005 06:29:23  
But its not an induction motor. Its a series motor and so both current and loaded speed are about proportional to voltage. Fortunately starter motors are made tough and stand the abuse of over voltage.

Gerald J.



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txgrn

04-11-2005 07:47:17




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to Gerald J., 04-10-2005 08:27:41  
How about a series wound (as compared to parallel or compound wound) induction motor? Induction is how it works, series is how it's built.

The secret to over voltage is also that fact that you aren't on it very long and the duty cycle is way low.

Mark



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Gerald J.

04-11-2005 08:21:16




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to txgrn, 04-11-2005 07:47:17  
There isn't a "series" "induction" motor. There is series and there is induction, but not combined. Series motors are the same whether for DC or AC but induction motors work only on AC and have no connections to the armature from the power. Its possible to have a wound rotor induction motor with slip rings and brushes for inserting starting resistance, but it won't run on DC.

Gerald J.



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txgrn

04-11-2005 20:30:27




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to Gerald J., 04-11-2005 08:21:16  
Here we go. If you don"t have magnetic induction, you don"t have rotation; doesn"t matter how it gets there. Besides it"s the induction that produces the counter EMF that limits excessive current and makes your DC motor have high starting torque and all that, beins the lack of adequate EMF lowers the resistance allowing for more current which increases torque and all. I can go out to the shop and get you the arthur, publisher, and copyright date for my motor manual if you want. I was looking at it just this noon to make sure I hadn"t forgotten something and was attempting to blow smoke.

Mark

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dr.sportster

04-10-2005 05:56:52




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to TomTX, 04-10-2005 03:25:03  
When the starter gets double the voltage theoreticly it draws half the amperage from before.This is strictly using Ohms law and not considering other factors.



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Gerald J.

04-10-2005 08:30:09




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to dr.sportster, 04-10-2005 05:56:52  
When you reconnect a motor for twice voltage (induction motor for example) you do cut the current in half, but if you don't reconnect the windings for the higher voltage the current will go up partly because of ohms law that says the current through a resistance is proportional to the applied voltage and in a motor from core saturation.

Gerald J.



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David - OR

04-10-2005 06:42:20




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to dr.sportster, 04-10-2005 05:56:52  
If a starter were a simple resistor, Ohm's law would say that applying twice the voltage would result in twice the current (not half). Four times the electrical power would then be flowing through the starter.

But a starter is not a resistor. It is a series wound DC motor (or a permanent magnet DC motor). The faster it spins, the more back EMF it develops. This tends to raise the effective resistance of the motor and reduces the current flow. The differnce in current draw between full stall and rated speed for most DC motors of these types is about 5 to 1.

If the engine is stuck, and the starter motor is fully stalled as it attempts to spin, the current draw will be maximum. Under these conditions, the motor does behave like a resistor. Apply twice the voltage and the motor will draw twice the current, and likely burn out if forced to do this for very long.

If the engine to be started is free to turn, applying a higher voltage to the starter will cause the starter to spin faster. Current draw will be somewhat higher than with the rated voltage and the same load, but less than when operated on its normal voltage but with the starter stalled, or turning against a very stiff engine.

The no-load speed of the starter will be higher with a higher voltage. Should the bendix disengage and the starter freewheel, there is the potential of damage to the armature from centrifugal force.

So the operator has to be more careful when applying a higher than rated voltage to the starter. Extended cranking, putting the vehicle in gear and attempting to move it with the starter, and operating with a starter drive that sometimes doesn't "catch", are things you can get away with with the normal rated voltage, but could lead to damaging the starter when operating with a higher voltage.

I use 12 volts on the 6 volt starter on my 9N tractor and it works quite well. I would hesitate to apply 24 volts to a 12 volt starter, but would think it would be OK at least for a while.

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dr.sportster

04-10-2005 07:19:39




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to David - OR, 04-10-2005 06:42:20  
Yes yes,the amperage would double not be cut in half.This is assuming the resistance stayed the same in both cases 6and 12 volt which it will not as txgrn stated.All I did was add incorrect confusion.If it was 10 ohms resistance at the starter in both voltages 12v would be 1.2 amps and 6v would .6amp.Im am not a good motor man and should have shut up since simple ohms law calculations dont consider many other electrical factors with a motor.Sorry guys.[I did quit the coffee]

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jdemaris

04-10-2005 20:36:41




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to dr.sportster, 04-10-2005 07:19:39  
Without having a protracted discussion about Peter Ohm's law along with many other variables - taking a 24 volt starter and trying to start the same diesel engine with 12 volts going through it thusly requires the same wattage - i.e. less voltage, more amperes. These needed amperes are trying to go through the smaller gauge wires that are typically used in 24 volt windings which is not a good situation. 12 volt windings are a larger gauge, and 6 volt windings larger yet - that is why over-volting works fine and undervolting does not. Typical 24 volt windings are inadequate for sustained usage at the lower 12 volts (9 volts at cranking).

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dr.sportster

04-11-2005 06:17:52




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to jdemaris, 04-10-2005 20:36:41  
Like jdemaris said the lower the starter voltage the heavier the windings.On dragbikes it is common to run a 12v starter at 24 and even 36 volts to crank a hand held auto starter.The amoumt of spinning time is minimal and despite the overvoltage fed to the starter I never saw anyone burn one up.Compression ratios of 14to1 in the engines[not all used compression release devices.Heat is what the killer is not overvoltage.

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txgrn

04-10-2005 06:30:36




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to dr.sportster, 04-10-2005 05:56:52  
The library has books covering induction motor theory.

Mark



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mike brown

04-12-2005 06:50:02




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to txgrn, 04-10-2005 06:30:36  
Anyone care to give more info on the series parallel swithch mentioned above? It might solve a problem for me.

Thanks
Mike



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dr.sportster

04-12-2005 09:18:32




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 Re: How do you convert a 24 v into a 12 v starter? in reply to mike brown, 04-12-2005 06:50:02  
Mike post a new heading.This one is beat to death I think.



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