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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

OT-How to find property lines

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RK

04-01-2005 16:40:57




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A neighbor cutting trees and trying to claim a part of my property. I have it surveyed and the posts are cemented in ground. My problem- there is a lot of dense brush/trees between stakes and I can't see one or the other. How could I tell where the line is between posts when I can't see them both. Talking to the owner would get me nowhere. Thanks




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John Niolon

04-07-2005 18:15:19




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 Re: OT-How to find property lines in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
RT.

you didn't mention how far apart the corners are or if the line was clear would you have clear line of site (no hills or hollers)..

If they are close enough... and you have access to a transit, or good binoculars or a rifle scope.... anything that you can get a magnified view with... hopefully there is one place you can see through... even if it's only 1' square... have someone hold something bright colored on one corner and search for it from the other... you can also get in the middle of the line (or where you think it is) and try to find one end then the other... a little brush cutting might do the trick.. You might have to have something tall (a 20' piece of 2x2 nailed together...with a flag to wave on one corner to see from the other... when you locate it by site... sharpen your bush axe or machete and start clearing... I'd hold off cutting large trees till I could get a good line of site :-)

Surveyors USED to cut true line, trees and all, but now a days they use coordinates and don't even need line to set the corners...

I surveyed for 20 years with my dad, a RLS.. sometimes you have to use compass readings and just correct when you find the other end...

john

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Nolan

04-04-2005 05:13:41




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 Re: OT-How to find property lines in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
Familiar sounding story. Ended up clearing the brush between the points so we could run a tight line. Made for some interesting discoveries along the way, as things weren't as we all thought they were or might be.

Inlaws have a property with the meets and bounds from tree to tree, creek to creek, vague radius descriptions and such. In their case, there is no precise and clear way to define the line.

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RK

04-03-2005 10:38:11




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 Re: OT-How to find property lines in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
Thanks for the advice. They surveyor I hired is a Public Engineer (PE) and had excellent references from people I trust. I have confidence in his work. There is a lot here I didn't know and interesting stories. I'll check at courthouse for info too. Thanks for the suggestions.



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Can't even use my name

04-03-2005 06:38:24




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 Re: OT-How to find property lines in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
One of our relatives is a logger and he made the mistake several years ago of not checking the property lines from the county records and ended up buying a $200 tree for close to $10,000. It was the neighbors tree and since he already cut it the neighbor set his price or said set a court date. Cheapest and easiest way was to buy that tree.



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led

04-02-2005 18:28:49




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 Re: OT-How to find property lines in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
Since I"m just an old country boy, I thought I would get shot in here. Not sure what your state on county you are from but I would advise you to go to county building and verify everything. Does you county have Divisional Fence laws & commision? Can you make your neighbor pay for 1/2 of divisional fence. Does fence have to be HOG TIGHT (Legal term)? Folk lore don"t count. Isn"t it amazing how some people just have to push the limit and not stay back a few feet. 1 or 1000 acres doesn"t matter some try to cheat for a few inches of land. Where I was born & raised, you could shoot a guy"s wife but you better never shoot his hunting dog!!!

Led

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T_Bone

04-02-2005 17:14:33




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 Re: OT-How to find property lines in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
Hi RK,

My son is just now going thru something simular. He had a house built 3yrs ago and the contractor built his 8ft high block fence 18" on another property.

Here in AZ, the survey doesn't mean anything until you record the survey with the county. If the survey is not contested with-in 1yr? (gees I can't remember) after recorded then the survey stands as recorded even if the survey if off the true property line.

There was a cavet to recording the survey tho. I'll have to ask...lol

As it is the son has to move 150ft of block fence plus the new survey (surveyor wasn't a registered contractor nor the fence builder) about $5k total.

T_Bone

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kyhayman

04-02-2005 16:32:29




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 Re: OT-How to find property lines in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
You are getting some good advice here, and some that might get you killed. Depending on where you are located a survey may not be worth the paper its written on for establishing your line; your neighbor may have one that conflicts with yours. Assuming your line is straight between the markers using a laser level would be the easiest and cheapest way to go. Just make sure you dont do ANYTHING past the mid point of your stakes. Then, if he is trespassing, get a court order. At least if you get it into court, in discovery you will find out what kinds of easements or surveys he has. I've been throguh this more times than I care to remember. I'd plan on getting a lawyer experienced with property rights cases in your state. Too many different laws.

A quick story, since 1810 my family has owned a piece of property in the western part of the state. OVer 200 people in 2 families have died and another 3 dozen have gone to prison over which side of a rock the boundary is on. Reason being is that land was granted from North Carolina Colony and Virgina Colony in the Kentucky 'wilderness' before any were states. These rocks are the basis for deeds today and they conflict.

Even state law doesnt always help. Here, where I live I am trying to get an access road open to the back of the farm. It was a county road however property is commonly deeded here to the center of the road. One state law says if a road isnt maintained by the county for 5 years it goes out of the county road system, another says that if it is access for a landowner it must be maintained by the county. All I want is to get it up to county specs and am willing to pay the entire cost. One guy pulled a gun on the dozer operator. Mimimum cost to open the road will be $50,000 in legal fees.

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jdemaris

04-02-2005 08:07:19




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 Re: Survey lines not always legally enforceable in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
I don't know what the exact mindset of your neighbor is, but . . ., lines done by a surveyor are not necessarily legally enforceable. Sometimes surveyors are wrong, sometimes correct, sometimes it has to be settled in a court. A survey is simply one person's interpretation of the boundaries. So, I don't know if your neighbor does not respect your lines at all, or just doesn't realize the boundary inbetween the marks you mention. Many times I've seen boudary line disputes with two adjacent properties get surveyed, by different surveyors, and the surveys don't match. I've got one 50 acre parcel where three different surveyors got involved, and none of the three separate surveys match. I have one line with three sets of pins - one for each surveyor, with 75 feet between them - that 75 feet is the descrepcency area - actual line could be anywhere in that area. I recently had another parcel, 100 acres or woods surveyed. The surveyor made many overt mistakes which I had to correct. Finally, after he made three map revisions after I found mistakes, I've got a map that, at least, I agree with. But, I don't know how correct it is. The original parcel was based on lines marked with tree slashs and wood pins in the ground, all done in 1792. Needless to say, the original slashes and wood pins were not found.

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RK

04-02-2005 05:59:39




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 Re: OT-How to find property lines in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
Thanks everybody for your help. Sounds like cutting out the brush for a clear line is the way to go. I had never thought to offset the line with the 90 degree measurements. The laser would probably work here too. I would say distance is about 250' between posts. I don't have a GPS but could probably borrow one. My brother also suggested the 2x4 painted orange method. I liked the helium balloon too. I just hope they are civil but I'd doubt it. Thanks again.

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youngster

04-02-2005 13:12:52




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 Re: OT-How to find property lines in reply to RK, 04-02-2005 05:59:39  
i know aroudn these neck of the woods when someone gets their woods logged they have to pay to have it surveyed so tell him that you think hes full of it and you wnat it surveyed



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John A.

04-02-2005 04:30:03




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 Re: OT-How to find property lines in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
RK,Try to find some mid points on the fence line. By whater ever means necessary. Now find a local contractor, or farmer/rancher that does custom dozer work. Have him to push a 40ft ROW. for the fence (10ft on the neighbor/30 on you.
In clearin the line 2 things are accomplished 1 the neighbor won't be cutting standing trees on your place. 2nd let him harvest all the wood he wants out of the piles, till you burn them later in the year. It is a nice way to get him off your place. If you ask him he may split the cost of the fence with you, if not you have a clean ROW for the fence at a later time.
A good dozer with a D7/D8 siztd tractor @ 100/hr should be able to do this for $1000 or so.
In the late fall we had about 4500 feet of fence ROW done it cost us about $2500, best money spent! ! ! Hope this helps.
Later,
John A.

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Midwest redneck

04-02-2005 04:03:19




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 Re: OT-How to find property lines in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
Other than paying $90/hour for a surveyor I would get a laser and point it from corner to corner. You may have to lop down brush to see better.



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Gary in Geneva

04-02-2005 03:12:58




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 Re: OT-How to find property lines in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
We used a laser and a very good compass to do rough clearing along our property lines. We found the magnetic deviation for our area and started at one of the markers. We used a laser and white piece of cardboard, but found that the white reflective tape like they use on trailers is even better for seeing the laser in the daylight. We would sight down the line as far as we could using the compass and put the target there. After aligning the laser we would take the target and follow the beam, and whack the brush that was in its way.

In bright sunlight we could use the laser for about 250�, and at dusk it was easy to see for almost 1000�. We made up a double ended one to go 500 in the sunlight�. The green lasers are easer to see over a large distance in sunlight. Our land is flat. It gently slopes down about 15� in a half mile.

When we reached the corner marker we were off just a couple of feet, so went back along the route and opened up the brush a little more and stretched a string. One more time through whacking at anything touching the string and we had the line marked for the rough clearing.

After the line was cleared (16� on our side) we had the surveyor come out to place points on line for fencing at their hourly charge. With the line cleared they could drive down it, and walk along without having to whack brush all of the way. The cost was MUCH less, If you figure in the cost of the clearing the total is just a bit more than the surveyor would have charged to just mark the line in the heavy brush we had.

It was very nice being able to tell one of the neighbors that thought their property went 30� � 50� further than it really did to have their surveyor contact our surveyor. Since he thought we were clearing on his land he was VERY upset, but remained civil in our conversation. Found out their surveyor had just measured from the ditch on the road, while their property line went down the center of the private road. Their surveyor was not much of a surveyor in my opinion.

The neighbor is a good one as he apologized. I truly believe in the old saying good fences make good neighbors. After our experiences with our 21 neighbors, I would not own a piece of land that was not cleared along the property line and fenced. It solves so many problems.

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2x4

04-01-2005 22:46:17




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 Re: OT-How to find property lines in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
tie a rope from one stake to the next one. May take several times to get a straight line



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Tom R

04-01-2005 20:55:11




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 Re: OT-How to find property lines in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
For a quick look, how about a helium baloon on a long string at the two known posts?



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youngster

04-01-2005 20:08:21




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 cheap way to find corners in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
is there a way that an individual can find their own property line? if not how much does having it surveyed cost? id love to be able to tell my neighbor to take a hike and put the woodpile backwhere it was. also do you folks know if the owner of the property next to yours telling you that a certain tree is yours is a legal agreement? im going for a hail mary here arent I??

let me know what yall think

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sjh

04-01-2005 18:40:58




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 Re: OT-How to find property lines in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
If I understand you corectly you have multiple post cemented along yor line. Could you paint a 16' 2x4 bright red and see it above the brush. That way you could see your stakes.



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skipper

04-01-2005 18:32:08




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 Re: OT-How to find property lines in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
RK
If you know someone in the survey business that may have a good GPS you could borrow, you can easily get it down to within three feet as long as you have a reasonably clear view to the sky. If you set waypoints within sight of each other then just sight the line in. We just completed a survey for the water district on a large lake with an expensive surveyors GPS and it was accurate to less than three feet and EASY. Have them program it for you where you want your points to be then just follow the course line to them.
Skipper

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Hermit

04-01-2005 17:39:10




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 Re: OT-How to find property lines in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
Offset your property line to a clear area. Then you can measure back to the property line any place along the offset.



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fencline

04-01-2005 17:37:35




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 Re: OT-How to find property lines in reply to RK, 04-01-2005 16:40:57  
RK,
I"ll see if I can put this on paper. Being in the fence business we come on this situation once in a while.
Measure back from the corner markers a greater distance than the brush sticks out (Lets say 50 feet) try to be careful to bring your measurement out at a 90 degree angle to the property line in question ( try to be as close as possible here even though the angle will be a guesstimate) Now string a line or have someone site a line for you so you can stake this line that will now be 50 feet away but near paralell to your property line. Now you can reverse the measurement anywhere along this line to indicate you actual property line.(keeping in mind to maintain that 90 degree angle) Hope this made sense.
Good Luck!
Andy

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