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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Insulated foundation

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jim861

03-25-2005 12:47:38




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Hey guys is anybody out their that has done this or has a neigbor that has built a house, for the foundation instead of the traditional forms used some are going with insulated styrafoam with the concrete being poured in the middle. Its suppose to have a R value of 50.an you can go two story's high.The cost is about 10% more per the sale's men but is made up in saving's in heating over time.As always thanks for your guys knowledge.

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Opa A

03-28-2005 09:49:26




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 Re: Insulated foundation in reply to jim861, 03-25-2005 12:47:38  
Mom & Dad just built their retirement home and use the styrofoam forms, the sprayed the outside with tar just as with a conventional basement to keep water from comming through along the plastic ties that hold the forms. Made a nice warm basement. That being said. I was working on an excavator last november on a job site. They had just had to remove a basement poured earlier using the same system. Seems the aggregate in the concrete was too course to get past all the rebar and there were voids up to 2 feet between the concrete wall and the footings. The whole thing was standing on the rebar. They were just glad they found the problem before moving the house on. They were going to redo the job using the same system but with finer concrete. They also said it was a real bear to vibrate decently.

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VaTom

03-28-2005 18:52:29




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 Re: Insulated foundation in reply to Opa A, 03-28-2005 09:49:26  
It's well established that vibration is only external, like with a sawzall, and that the aggregate must be smaller, making the mix weaker. Also the slump is greater, making normal PSI ratings more difficult.

Whoever poured that basement was a hack. There's no excuse for those mistakes.



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Joel Harman

03-26-2005 06:08:07




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 Re: Insulated foundation in reply to jim861, 03-25-2005 12:47:38  
Savings are in the labor costs & r-value. No stripping the forms.

Not any harder to brace than traditional forms. Read the instructions.

Blocks come in different widths.

One needs to put a skim coat of mortar or some such medium on the outside. Guy could spray on gunnite easily. For inside one can sheetrock it or skim coat it when outside is done.



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Galen

03-26-2005 05:23:15




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 Re: Insulated foundation in reply to jim861, 03-25-2005 12:47:38  
Looked into it when we moved our house in. Found it to be hard to find, EXPENSIVE, needs LOTS of bracing, and ugly. Laid traditional blocks instead.



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youngster

03-25-2005 19:16:31




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 how thick are these things in reply to jim861, 03-25-2005 12:47:38  
How thick is teh cavity in these panells? and how thick is the insulation? I wouldnt like the idea of my house sitting on styrofoam! but its your call



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dr.sportster

03-25-2005 18:17:29




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 Re: Insulated foundation in reply to jim861, 03-25-2005 12:47:38  
Jim ,I know nothing on this but its funny what Gerald said about critters.I remember when NASA had a problem with birds pecking the space shuttle.It was a hard foam surface like that.Im always yelling at birds pecking my barn."cut that out its not the space shuttle".Generally rodents love to chew and love insulation.



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Gerald J.

03-25-2005 16:37:37




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 Re: Insulated foundation in reply to jim861, 03-25-2005 12:47:38  
There's no where enough insulation to get an R value of 50. Some claim "effective" 50 because the concrete acts to absorb a lot of the heat and not pass it through rapidly. That concrete center has a very high thermal inertia. If you measure R value in ten minutes, the value will be even higher. If you take two days it will be about 20 if there is 2" of foam on each wall face.

Most vendors don't have an answer to my question, "What about digging critters outside?" If they have an answer they often say there's no food value in the insulation. But its warm and its a comfortable place for mice and insects to tunnel for a living space destroying its insulation value. And some critters like badger just dig to chase smaller critters. These critters then can easily remove both the insulation and the exterior waterproofing.

One company that I've seen has insecticde IN the foam. Is that safe for the house occupants? They don't answer that either.

Cost of material is higher, but since the foam blocks are the forms, there' no labor cost for removing the forms. But the forms don't get reused and there has to be quite a bit of bracing installed and removed. You can't pour as fast, and mostly need a concrete pump to control the drop. You can't drop concrete 12 feet down a tall wall, but have to put the pump hose down near the bottoms and raise it as the concrete rises. Read the literature, there will be a maximum concrete drop distances usually under 4 feet. Concrete pumper trucks and concrete that will pump raises the cost.

Its not a horribly bad technique, just its not nearly as good as some would claim.

Gerald J.

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VaTom

03-26-2005 06:00:27




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 Re: Insulated foundation in reply to Gerald J., 03-25-2005 16:37:37  
ICF's a method I recommend for DIYers. I build concrete houses and looked carefully at it. You're right about the manufacturers originally lying about R value. Haven't seen that R50 claim in a looong time. But for anybody desiring a concrete house and not wanting the crew to form one, it's a good system. The American Concrete Institute believes it's the future.

Two reasons I don't use ICFs: 1)you can't vibrate normally and don't strip, thereby having no idea about voids. I've seen daylight before. 2) there's the insulation on the inside, between you and the mass. Thermally, that's the wrong place for insulation, should all be on the outside. Says me, and Oak Ridge Labs.

Heard it before but I don't share your concerns with buried insulation, been living in an underground house for 10 yrs. No problems. What happens is that critters prefer the top soil that surrounds the insulation, not bothering my "umbrella" of insulation and 6 mil poly, which extends 20' beyond the perimeter. The dirt surrounding the house is my heating/cooling system. We get serious about how the insulation works and where it is, otherwise we'd have to heat and cool the house. We discourage large burrowing critters from staying around.

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RayP(MI)

03-25-2005 16:48:47




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 Re: Insulated foundation in reply to Gerald J., 03-25-2005 16:37:37  
Our local Intermediate School District"s house construction class built a home with that method. Worked fine except where the foam form gave way! Gotta be well braced on both the inside and outside, or there"s risks of failure, and it Ain"t pretty!



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Gerald J.

03-25-2005 17:53:10




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 Re: Insulated foundation in reply to RayP(MI), 03-25-2005 16:48:47  
A break sure isn't pretty. The easiest way to make it break is to dump from a truck instead of pumping the concrete. That full wall height fall is easily capable of breaking the foam out, even when braced.

Gerald J.



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upred

03-25-2005 16:29:31




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 Re: Insulated foundation in reply to jim861, 03-25-2005 12:47:38  
my brother installed Insulated concrete forms for his house last year, and put in infloor heat. His basement is nice and warm. Two things to consider is that ICF are combustible and need to be covered with dry wall on the inside, and protected from the weather outside above grade level- Rick



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old

03-25-2005 14:15:11




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 Re: Insulated foundation in reply to jim861, 03-25-2005 12:47:38  
In my area they are building a lot of the habitat houses that way. Cost is something like $15 per foam block which is about a 2X4 area. If I had the money I'd use them.



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dangerdoc

03-25-2005 12:57:42




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 Re: Insulated foundation in reply to jim861, 03-25-2005 12:47:38  

It"s a great idea.

It should cost about 10% less than traditional construction. I didn"t use it because I think they are gouging people with the price.

Some folks down the road started an addition last year with it. The walls are poured but no roof, I don"t know if they ran into trouble doing it themselves.



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