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OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK

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matthies

03-15-2005 20:19:45




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My mom replaced her 60 year old coal/oil furnace with a Lennox Elite 92% eff. seven years ago. A week ago it won't kick in. Checked it out and found the small fan motor was hot she called the dealer who installed the unit and had to replace the motor/fan assembly. This isn't the blower fan for the vents. The motor is 3 inches by 6 inches and comes with the squirrel cage fan at $562. And he also said the heat exchanger is burned out, this is worth with labor $1000. On a seven year old furnace in a medium sized house! And no warranty. He said you're lucky you don't have a PULSE unit no replacement parts all discontinued! Always thought Lennox was a good name, we're going to call some other dealers to see if they will do any better for us. Total Comfort in Columbus Nebraska is the dealer in question. thanks for any info you guys can help with chris

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irishtinner

03-18-2005 09:26:10




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to matthies, 03-15-2005 20:19:45  
In my opinion, Lennox does have a poor line of furnaces, however I don't feel that your dealer is not being exactly truthful either. If your heat exchanger is actually bad (either cracked primary or sooted secondary - sooted secondary is usually the fault of installing dealer not properly performing factory "start up" procedures)(cracked primary may also be installing dealer's fault if the unit was over fired - gas presure set too high). It is true that the Pulse line is discontinued and out of stock - except for certain very large models, but Lennox will help home owners by supplying a new furnace (and has been very good about taking care of their customers), usually the Elite series. If you have to pay for the labor to change out your heat exchanger, it should run around $300.00 to $400.00. (not $1000.00 - somebody is trying to get rich off of you). As far as the motor in question being "hot", that is usually a symptom of another problem and not necessarily time to replace it. The technician should have been looking for the cause of the problem not trying to repair the symptoms. I would suggest several things - Look for a NATE certified technician (NATE is to furnaces what ASE is to car mechanics), read Consumer Reports Nov 2002 page 9 and May 2001 page 34 -35 (available in most finer public libraries), and hire a union contractor (preferably one that belongs to the Sheet metal Workers Int. Assoc.)- union contractors pay for their technicians to serve a 4 year apprenticeship so that you know that they have plenty of training and experience before they arrive on your doorstep (non union contractors hire whomever they can get cheap, if your dealer is non union, then it is entirely possible that the technician that arrived at your house may have been flipping burgers last week ("last week he couldn't spell service technician, now he are one")-Most of all SHOP AROUND and GET A SECOND (or third) opinion.

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Greywolf

03-18-2005 14:39:25




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to irishtinner, 03-18-2005 09:26:10  
That may be true for a union worker MAYBE having 4 yrs of training.

But around here that would mean about a 60 mile one way service call. Think I'll go with the local guy that can't afford to screw up a job as word of mouth advertising would take him down within the year.

Union guy could give a rip...after all...can't be fired.



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irishtiner

03-21-2005 10:15:05




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to Greywolf, 03-18-2005 14:39:25  
In response to Greywolf: No they don't fire us - they just fail to schedule us any hours if we aren't any good (starve us out)whereas scab (non union) contractors tend to linger on for up to five years if they aren't any good or if they are known to screw people or are known to be no good. I can't imagine anyone wanting to be one of the poor bastards that they hose before their reputation finally catches up with them. I suspect that you (or a close friend or relative) works for (or are yourself) a non union contractor. No one else would stick up for the Mr Haney's out there except for another one. (Birds of a feather). Oh, and by the way, union people do have four years of apprenticeship - bet on it - "non union" seldom has any training at all

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kyhayman

03-17-2005 19:53:09




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to matthies, 03-15-2005 20:19:45  
When I bought my house it had an 8 year old pulse gas Rheem. It was a real piece of work, nothing but trouble. Lasted 2 more years. I change companies and the new guys put me in a new Rheem 80% effi pulse gas. Had good service 1 year, then had nothing but trouble. HVAC man said there was a problem with the gas, gas company said a problem with the furnace. Finally insisted on the gas company changing the regulator at the house and it solved that problem (pressure dropping over time as the furnace ran sooting the flame sensor). Still 'not quite right'. Then I changed gas companies. WOW! furnace works like it should, no srvice calls, burners stay clean, and the flame is the right color.

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IH2444

03-17-2005 06:03:02




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to matthies, 03-15-2005 20:19:45  
Based on my experience/observations. You are going to pay one way or the other. Get a lower efficiency reliable furnace ansd pay more for gas. Get a high efficiency furnace and save on gas but pay the difference in furnace repairs. Sucks....



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matthies

03-16-2005 19:55:55




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace update in reply to matthies, 03-15-2005 20:19:45  
Went and talked with another Lennox dealer today and he couldn't believe the prices until he heard who we were dealing with. The heat exchanger has a lifetime warranty to owner, he said they replace them no matter who owns it. It is a G26 like one guy stated and this dealer couldn't say a bad thing about them. He also said he hated to see that model get changed since they were a nice model to couple together for larger area's.He's wondering since the purge blower motor and heat exchanger are both bad then a restriction on either the cool side or hot side of the exchanger caused this. The $562 bill isn't itemized, they have procedure steps and this is the charge amount. The dealer today said that the motor is just shy of $200, so the rest is labor and mileage(30 one way). And he said he could install the exchanger for $600. So we will do some more pricing this weekend. thanks chris

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Mark - IN.

03-16-2005 16:39:01




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to matthies, 03-15-2005 20:19:45  
I was surprised to hear that's just about the life expectency of furnaces anymore. When I sold my last house, the buyers realtor said "Seven year-old furnace, gonna need a new one" as though I just robbed a bank or committed murder, then told me to come down on price for that one. I told them to go buy a new house if they wanted one. They bought mine for what I asked, but my realtor told me that I was "gonna have a problem with such an old furnace" too.

Predicting seven years out of a new furnace? Predicting five years out of a new MTD garden tractor? Mmm, guess that's why some prefer old stuff.

Mark

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Fawteen

03-16-2005 15:41:24




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to matthies, 03-15-2005 20:19:45  
What a timely topic. I have a 50+ year old H.B.Smith oil-fired hot water system that needs some updating. I've been trying to decide whether to replace it with a new higher efficiency unit or spend some serious bucks on repairing/upgrading my existing unit.

I've had two estimates on replacing it, and both are out of my price range, $5200 for a Peerless and $7100 for a Weil-Mclain. Neither estimate includes the $1500-$1800 to have the chimney brought up to code.

Based on what I'm hearing here, I think I just decided to fix what I've got, as the boiler/firebox is still good, it just needs some controls replaced and wiring updated. I probably wouldn't save enough on oil to make up the price of a new unit in my remaining lifetime anyway.

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markinwi

03-16-2005 13:49:39




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to matthies, 03-15-2005 20:19:45  
Had the heat exchanger replaced last year in a 7-8 year old Lennox furnace. Dealer told us it had a lifetime warranty and replaced it N/C.



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Bob - MI

03-16-2005 13:09:34




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to matthies, 03-15-2005 20:19:45  
Draft inducer failure is an expensive fix if you have the service guy do it but some of the more common parts are available for you to install for a lot less. I"m surprised that heat exchanger is shot at that age with no warranty. I would suggest you get a second opinion on this. Like many things in life, not everybody takes the same approach to repairing things and this service tech may see a commission check on the sale of a new furnace. I think Lennox has a 10 year warranty on the heat exchangers.

I have had both Lennox and Rheem furnaces and have had good experience with both. My current Lennox is 15 years old and it checks out fine. I have owned this house for about 5 years and this year had to tighten the mounting screws for the draft inducer fan (it was rattling all over the place but is OK now), and I replaced the fan control myself. Cost about $40.00 for an OE part and it works great again. I consider myself lucky though. I live in Michigan and the furnace gets a workout.

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jdemaris

03-16-2005 13:05:22




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  Lennox Furnace JUNK - 1948 Firestone works great! in reply to matthies, 03-15-2005 20:19:45  
I don't know anything about the Lennox, but some of the newer furnaces are absolute junk - especially some of the hot-air units. One of my buildings has a 1948 Firestone hot-air oil furnace (Firestone label calls it an air conditioner). It still works great. No cad-cell, it uses a stack switch, and the heat-exchanger is firebrick lined. I bought a new Onieda oil hot-air furnace for another house, and it burnt out in 6 years. Ondeida made it just about impossible to collect on the "lifetime warranty." Wanted me to pay for a new heat-exchanger, pay for an authorized dealer installation, pay the shipping and send the old one back, they'd inspect it, and then - make the decision if they'd honor the warranty. They said if the heat-exchanger had heat damage, the warranty was void! Heat damage? Kind of like saying warranty is void on your car if you drive it. My son bought an Olsen oil hot-air furnace, it burnt out in 4 years. He then paid Agway to install a new Carrier furnace. In one year, it's had two circuit board failures. I patched the heat-exchanger in my furnace rather then get screwed around by the company. Since then, I'm come across many new furnaces that had very short lives. Mosty because of the cheap refractory blanket that's used for the heat-exhanger liner. Once it crumbles, the thin metal in the exchanger burns right out. So now, as least with hot-air furnaces, I know what to look for. If there is a heat-exhanger where metal is in direct proximity of the flame, it needs stainless steel, or a real hard clay or firebrick liner - and not that cheap blanket.

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CJ-maybe

03-16-2005 10:17:05




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to matthies, 03-15-2005 20:19:45  
No problems in 7yrs? Not bad.As far as JUNK,there is alot out there.Newer(hi-eff)alot of throw away.All of them are getting too complex,circuit boards ,blowers,pressure switches,etc,etc.Thank the gov't,lawers,cheap production,people who want everything for nothing & won't compare like products.Sure there can be some lemons,happens to anybody.Sounds like a service/dealer problem.Lennox dealers are mostly independent & deal direct w/ Lennox,not 1 or more distributors(middlemen)thus most parts come from dealers.No diff than trying to get a Deere part at a Kubota dealer.With that said he can charge what he wants,but it sounds high,at least here (MI).As far as Pulse's,they are a good furnace.Most people just don't understand them.All parts except the heat ex are available,& if it meets warranty criteria Lennox will stand behind the unit.As far as your mom's furnace,I'm guessing a G26? LP probably or NAT? 7 yrs isn't bad for a comb blower.They're small,fast,lubed for life.The HE?Leaking,plugged,what?Has it been serviced regularly?Lennox will stand behind their warranty if it meets warranty conditions.I have had very litte problems w/these units.You need a litte more info.Sorry for the long post,you hit a nerve.Just labeling it JUNK,without the 'whole story'or some input-hmmm.I spend most of my time straighting out misconceptions,advice,outright lies,ect & defending Lennox.Nobody is always right or can know everything(10 people/10 opinions).And yes,I am a Lennox dealer,over 55 yrs,3rd gen.And I'm still learning.BTW, based on our service dept,we spend most of our time repairing everything but Lennox.I think your mom made a good choice.

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kidbob

03-16-2005 08:09:37




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to matthies, 03-15-2005 20:19:45  
My fathers furnace was installed in 1951, and still going strong with some fan work and a transformer for the thermostat.



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dr.sportster

03-16-2005 08:38:42




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to kidbob, 03-16-2005 08:09:37  
Well, what brand is it?



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Ron from IL

03-16-2005 08:03:01




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to matthies, 03-15-2005 20:19:45  
Eleven years ago, I installed a Janitrol furnace (92%) in my home myself. The HVAC/R guys that I work with told me that they were comparable to name-brand furnaces (Lennox, Bryant, etc.) and should hold up well. HAH! In that eleven years, I had to replace the I.D. fan, the main circuit board, the piezo igniter circuit board, the burner, and had continual problems with the flame (could never get proper color/ratio) and starting up in the fall (had to remove the pilot tube and clean the orifice every time). The discharge air temp was lukewarm, and from across the room felt like a draft rather than heat.

I've moved, and now am in an old house with hot water heat and I LOVE IT!! It's more uniform, quieter, less dusty, and CHEAPER! I'd never go back to forced air again.

Ron

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Mike(inWisc)

03-16-2005 06:59:35




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to matthies, 03-15-2005 20:19:45  
Well, if you want my opinion, I think all of this newer stuff is junk. It doesn't seem to matter the brand, now (at least around here) furnaces do NOT last much longer than six years, and the techs are trying to tell me that is normal.

I am in my second year of a 92% efficient Armstrong that seems to be troublesome. It has a five year warranty on parts and labor, and will probably have to be replaced in it's sixth year or so.

Now once you factor in the cost, they don't seem cheaper to me to run compared to the older style fuel oil furnaces that we had to replace. (My old thermal king dated from about 1966 and lasted through 2003.)

NONE of this new stuff will last even half as long.

I am an unhappy and disappointed consumer.

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dr.sportster

03-16-2005 04:46:53




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to matthies, 03-15-2005 20:19:45  
All empoyees of Lenox are required to wear clip on neck ties only.So if you get mad enough to punch someone from Lenox dont pull him by the tie it will only pop off and throw off your boxing stance.[Same with cops].Hope this helps if it comes to fisticuffs.



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Vern-MI

03-16-2005 04:01:27




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to matthies, 03-15-2005 20:19:45  
Had a Bryant and it was pure junk. After 12 years the exchanger in it looked like rusty lace so it was becomming very efficient but also very dangerous. It was NOISY!

I now have had a Comfortmaker for about 8 years and it seems to be holding up quite well. It is not a 92% but rather a 80-82% unit with a conventional chimney. It does have the small fan assisted combustion blower that you refered to. It has a S.S. exchanger. We paid $4200 installed with chimney liner, White Rogers Electronic thermostat, humidifier, Honeywell air filter, and A/C compressor and "A"-coil.

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Vern-MI

03-16-2005 04:16:02




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to Vern-MI, 03-16-2005 04:01:27  
Just looked at furnaceparts.com and the price on the combustion blower for the comfortmaker is $152. Problem is when you need furnace service you need it right away or the water pipes start freezing. Furnaceparts.com does have overnight delivery available.

The draft inducer blowers for the Lennox were as follows:
7021-8657 draft inducer blower for Lenox direct replacement exhaust draft inducer blower motor for Lenox models using fasco part 7021-8657 inducer Product Code: A138 Status: In Stock $138.95

Fasco 7021-7577 furnace draft inducer blower A139 exhaust draft inducer blower. Direct replacement for fasco 7021-7577 (look for fasco number on your motor)used on various Rheem Ruud Weatherking models. Product Code: A139 Status: In Stock $233.69

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T_Bone

03-16-2005 01:03:54




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to matthies, 03-15-2005 20:19:45  
Hi Chris,

I've been out of the HVAC loop over ten years but industry standard was a 10yr warranty on heat exchangers. Pretty hard to find a mfg with less but times change so that might be very well common today. Yor paper work that came with the furnace should answer this question in writing.

A heat exchanger is either leaking or not, there's no inbetween. A cracked exchanger will leak CO (carbon monoxide) into the supply air and distribute over the house. Not good as CO is deadly.

My question? why the call back of the service tech in only one weeks time? The unit didn't preform after the fan motor replacement? Why wasn't the bad heat exchanger found last week at the time of fan motor replacement? This is a big red flag for me.

Did they leave the old fan motor? If not always request all old parts be left behind for the homeowner to throw away. This keeps the parts replacers honest that didn't diagnose the problem correct the first time. Of course keep the old parts until the repair lasts for awhile.

T_Bone

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Jay (ND)

03-16-2005 06:32:29




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to T_Bone, 03-16-2005 01:03:54  
Lifetime warranty on the heat exchanger is pretty much standard on residential furnaces now. I'm unsure about Lennox.



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greywynd

03-15-2005 23:59:21




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to matthies, 03-15-2005 20:19:45  
I know a couple guys in the heating business. They say the biggest problem with the Lennox is that you have to buy almost all parts from them, nothing else will fit/work. Same goes for high effiency oil....at least some of them. A lot of the standard, off the shelf component 'mid-effiency' oil furnaces get 80-85%, whereas 'high' goes to about 92% at best.....but, also all kinds of electronics etc to deal with, where there's none in most of the mid's....there's likely going to be a new mid effiency furnace go in my house before next fall.

Mark

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buickanddeere

03-15-2005 21:07:45




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 Re: OT: Lennox Furnace JUNK in reply to matthies, 03-15-2005 20:19:45  
If you go back to the home heating posts here around Jan 21st and 31st of this year. There are some links and info.



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