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Settle this dispute

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Can't even use

03-08-2005 05:46:00




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Not sure how but a friend and I got talking about pulleys and belts and their rpm's yesterday. Had a small dispute as to whether the rpm's of a belt change with the length of the belt. Say you have two 12" pulleys, one drive and one idler running at 1750 rpm's and they are spaced 36" from centers then you space them 8' on center. Keeping the 1750 rpm pulley speed wouldn't your belt rpm's slow down? He keeps trying to tell me that if the pulley is at 1750 so are the belts.

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TomTX

03-09-2005 06:22:58




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
You good folks have way too much time on your hands. Come on over to the Implement Alley board and help me with my question about an Intl 430 baler.



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Boog

03-09-2005 05:35:00




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
Correct answer:
In your case:
idling pulley keeps same RPM.
belt speed remains same.
belt RPM decreases.
belt RPM and pulley RMP was never the same.



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HTR

03-08-2005 21:24:18




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
You sure got a lot of correct answers to questions you didn't ask, and a few correct answers to the question you did ask.



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Can't even use my name

03-09-2005 08:58:07




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to HTR, 03-08-2005 21:24:18  
Yeah! That is why I love these boards.



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DaveCA

03-08-2005 17:30:25




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
Well anybody knows if you try to stretch your belt that far it ain"t gonna make it even once!



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Can't even use my name

03-08-2005 19:56:50




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to DaveCA, 03-08-2005 17:30:25  
Ya got me there. I guess I should have said we are using two different length belts too. So I guess there are two and only two variables here, distance between pulleys AND belt length which would change the RPM's of the belt itself.



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Redmud

03-08-2005 17:24:03




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
Sorry Can't, your right, belt lenght dictates the RPM's of the belt.



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DL

03-08-2005 16:15:25




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
OK, let's reason this out... According to your stated scenario, we have a 12" diameter pulley turning @ 1750 rpm driving a belt to another pulley, also 12" in diameter. Center to center distance is 36". First, let's calculate the circumference of the pulleys. The formula for circumference is "pi" x diameter. Using this formula, we get 3.1416 x 12" ...the circumference of the pulley is approximately 37.7". Next, if we take the circumference times the rpm's, (37.7" x 1750 rpm's) the "rim" of the pulley will "travel" approximately 5,500 feet per minute. If you connect a belt to this driven pulley, the length of the belt (center to center distance) is irrelevant! The driven pulley is still only capable of moving about 5,500 ft of belt per minute, regardless of the length of the belt connected to it. As T-Bone mentioned, a longer belt will appear to move slower, but the "surface feet per minute" are the same. The ONLY way to affect the "rpm" is to change the diameter of the driven pulley or change the rpm of the motor. HTH!
regards, DL

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DL

03-08-2005 16:24:08




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to DL, 03-08-2005 16:15:25  
If by "rpm", you meant the number of times the belt itself goes around every minute, then you would be correct. In the above scenario, if we had a belt that was 5,500 ft long, THE BELT would move at exactly 1 rpm... a belt 550 ft long would move at 10 rpm... a belt 55 ft long would move at 100 rpm, and a belt 5.5 ft long would move at 1000 rpm. regards, DL



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dr.sportster

03-08-2005 14:02:27




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
Hold it I just found the real answer in an old Russian engineering manual.Shafts are measured speedwise in RPM belts are measured in CAPM .come arounds per minute.



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dr.sportster

03-08-2005 15:28:05




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to dr.sportster, 03-08-2005 14:02:27  
In a new one to me also since I just made it up. Pure BS.



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paul

03-08-2005 22:38:59




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to dr.sportster, 03-08-2005 15:28:05  
Personally, makes more sense than 'rpm of a belt' tho, never heard of that as a unit before. Only fpm for the belt, rpm for a shaft.

--->Paul



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Can't even use my name

03-08-2005 14:56:28




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to dr.sportster, 03-08-2005 14:02:27  
Would a CAPM basically be the same thing as an RPM? That is a new one to me.



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JL Sargent

03-08-2005 13:19:25




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
DOES THE BELT RPM CHANGE? YES, YES , YES. The longer the belt the fewer the revolutions per minute. Period.!!!



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Can't even use my name

03-08-2005 14:54:34




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to JL Sargent, 03-08-2005 13:19:25  
THANKYOU! All I was looking for. Everyone else made it too technical or too involved... which isn't really a bad thing! Thanks to all for your replys and proving me right.



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bcPA

03-08-2005 12:29:31




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
The feet per minuite the belt travels will stay the same. Technically the revelutions per minuite the belt makes will change but who cares. I believe it is immiterial. The only thing it should affect is how fast the belt wears out and maybee rate of strech.



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Can't even use my name

03-08-2005 14:52:47




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to bcPA, 03-08-2005 12:29:31  
Right now I care about the rpm's of the belt but normally like you say no one cares, all that matters is the pulley rpm's. Again, I realize this is stupid but it is one of those things you try to explain to someone and they just don't get it.



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Redmud

03-08-2005 10:17:49




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
You guys are making my head hurt. the 12" drive pulley turning 1750 RPM's will turn the 12" idler pulley 1750 RPM's. the length of the belt makes no difference. the part of the belt that is moving around the idler pulley, is doing the same speed as the part of the belt moving around the drive pulley. think about your old chevy truck with two different length belts running the fan pulley. I'm talking about the belt that drives the fan and AC. and the belt that drives the fan, AC, and power steering pump. we won't even talk about the short sucker that drives the ALT.

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Can't even use my name

03-08-2005 14:50:07




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Redmud, 03-08-2005 10:17:49  
Correct about the pulley speed not changing with belt length but that is not the question. It is a dumb question but reread it.



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Ramond

03-08-2005 10:17:44




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
And the winner is T Bone. He is exactly correct. Only changing one or both of the pulley diameters or the RPM of the driver pulley will increase or decrease the belt surface speed measured in feet per minute (FPM). Distance between pulleys has no bearing on the belt speed. In my career, I have calculated many speed changes associated with pulleys and chain sprockets. Hope this helps.



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Can't even use my name

03-08-2005 14:48:26




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Ramond, 03-08-2005 10:17:44  
I totally agree with you and I do realize you don't measure belt speed in rpm's but rather in/min or something to that effect. However, it is true than that with a longer distance between the pulleys and assuming no slippage or change in speed that even though the in/min remain the same the rotation speed measured in rpm's would have to be less? I know it is the stupidest thing to figure out but ya'll know how we get about these dumb things. After all, I am correct!

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JoeK

03-08-2005 08:01:11




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
"Apples and Oranges"...Belt and Pulleys...Pulley speed(RPM)would remain the same.Belt speed(FPM)would be different...Rotary speed vs Lineal speed measurement.
-Take a wheel,say 15"-
Turning at a given RPM with a 30" tall tire,vs that same wheel,same rpm speed with a 40" tall tire.Although the wheel is the same size,and turning the same speed,the larger tire will travel further and faster over the same amount of time.FPM or linear distance.

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Can't even use my name

03-08-2005 09:11:41




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to JoeK, 03-08-2005 08:01:11  
I do beleive you are wrong on the FPM changing with belt length. Only the rpm's of the belt change.



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paul

03-08-2005 12:00:00




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 09:11:41  
_Now_ I understand what you are talking about. :)

Belts are not measured in RPM, so you are kind of on a fringe there. The longer belt has to travel farther to go all the way around, but it doesn't matter to anyone - the rpm of the pulleys and the fpm of the belt will not change, and there is no rpm of the _belt_ involved, so there is no point.....

--->Paul



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JoeK

03-08-2005 10:41:53




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 09:11:41  
Yes I am wrong on that,FPM(assuming no slippage) would remain the same,however a mark on the belt would visually appear to be moving at a different speed from a given viewpoint due to the longer length of the belt taking a longer time to travel back to the original point. What I'm saying is belts dont"have"RPMs.A belt is used to transfer RPMs from one revolving(R)part to another revolving part.Although both revolving parts(pulleys)speed is measured in Revolutions Per Minute,the connecting belt is rated in Feet Per Minute"traveling"past a given point or,linear motion.

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thurlow

03-08-2005 06:40:27




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
Sometimes on a question like this, it helps to expand the parameters to an absurdity; what if the two pulleys were a mile apart? If you mark a place (splice) on the belt, how long would it take it to make a complete revolution? Feet per minute wouldn't change, but a complete revolution of the belt..... .....



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dr.sportster

03-08-2005 06:33:56




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
If you think about an idler pulley or belt tensioer that pushes up on a belt or chain for tension;that bearing in that thing is cranking fast from surface speed of the belt or chain.Guys would use skateboard wheels for this on dragbikes.Halfway down the track the little bearing would burn up and flying skateboard wheel away,heads up.I found a Rockwell sander belt tensioner with a large bearing to work on my bike without spinning to death.

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gary tomaszewski

03-08-2005 06:32:49




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
Belt speed is measured in feet per minute (FPM), the number of feet of belt crossing a point on the drive will be constant. The length of belt will only affect the number of revs the belt makes in a given time.



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dr.sportster

03-08-2005 06:40:17




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to gary tomaszewski, 03-08-2005 06:32:49  
Gary is correct but I must add belt RPM has no effect on the driven pulley or sprocket.



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dr.sportster

03-08-2005 06:51:01




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to dr.sportster, 03-08-2005 06:40:17  
Belt RPM although not considered in gearing change would affect driven pulley.I am confusing myself now.



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dr.sportster

03-08-2005 06:18:52




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
I say the there is no effect other than pulley or sprocket size.Same for chains and sprockets surface speed is also unaffected by distance between centers only size changes in pulley or sprocket will have effect in change of belt or chain speed.



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T_Bone

03-08-2005 06:10:43




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
Hi CN,

The driven and sheave speed would remain the same, 1750rpm, not discounting 100% grip assumption.

The belt surface speed would also remain the same once at maximum RPM again allowing for no slipage.

If you were watching the belt splice pass, then it would appear to be moving slower as it would take longer to travel from the sheave to the driven thus appearing to travel slower but in reality it would be at 1750rpm reguardless of the distance.

Only changing pulley diameters or motor RPM would effect belt surface speed.

T_Bone

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Vern-MI

03-08-2005 11:25:19




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to T_Bone, 03-08-2005 06:10:43  
The speed of the belt in inches per minute would be pi (3.1416) times the pitch diameter of the belt in the driven pulley (defined by the approximate diameter of the centerline of the belt as it sits in the pulley, not the pulley overall diameter) multplied times the RPM of the driven pulley. (pi x P.D. x RPM) = inches per minute belt speed.



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Can't even use my name

03-08-2005 09:07:37




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to T_Bone, 03-08-2005 06:10:43  
I agree with you on the surface speed remaining constant so long as the pulley rpm's do too but the rpm's of the belt would have to be lower the longer the belt is right?



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T_Bone

03-08-2005 16:34:57




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 09:07:37  
Hi CN,

No, the belt speed would not change. In order for the belt speed to change it would have to slip on one of the pulleys.

Example:
RPM of a pulley is measured at center of shaft.
Tip speed of a pulley is the rpm of the pulley at the outer pulley diameter.

The tip speed of your 12" pulley's is 5498fpm each and would also be the belt speed. 12x3.1416x1750/12=5498fpm
where:
12= pulley diameter
3.1416= pi
1750= motor rpm or sheave rpm
12= convert to feet per minute

So what happens to belt speed when we change driven pulley size like we do when we want to slow down a compressor?

Lets use your example but say we want the compressor to run at 875rpm. The motor pulley is 12"@1750rpm and the compressor pulley is 24"@875rpm.

The belt speed stays the same 5498fpm. Check math with tip speed:
12x3.1416x1750/12= 5498fpm on the sheave

24x3.1416x875/12 = 5498fpm on the compressor pulley even tho the pulley diameter increased to 24" the belt speed stayed the same.

Note: This was not a good example as the motor pulley was too large thus exceeding design belt speed. Belt speed should never exceed 5000fpm. Why 5000fpm? The belt will start to overheat from friction.

On the other hand the sheave can not be too small. Minimum belt contact arc should be greater than 120� or the belt will slip upon start up.

T_Bone

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Can't even use my name

03-08-2005 20:06:41




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to T_Bone, 03-08-2005 16:34:57  
T_Bone, You are looking too hard! Step back and read this again. What I am asking is if the rotations per minute of the belt would change with the distance between the pulleys being changed and nothing else except of course the length of the belt. So if you are pulling at your calculated 5498 ft/min and you change from 36" between pulleys to say 120" you have to get a longer belt which means more feet of belting which means in order for the belt to make one revolution you have to move more feet of belt. If you are moving those feet of belt at the same calculated 5498 ft/min you belt rpm's have to change and in this example be slower due to the greater distance between pulleys and the longer belt. Ya understand now?

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T_Bone

03-09-2005 12:23:29




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 20:06:41  
Hi CN,

The number you keep referring too has no engineering basis. It's a useless number and can not be used for any engineering calculations. That is the point I'm trying to get you too look at.

It's imaterial if the belt splice makes one revolution or 1000 revolutions. In belt timing applications, ie; like delivering a part via conveyor belt to a pictular point in a given amount of time, then belt speed is used, exspressed as feet per minute and needs to be corrected for belt thickness as Vern pointed out.

You can read the responses that is on this thread and see the confusion as people are trying to justifiy this number your seeking for some type useful number that must be known when if fact as proven by my examples, it has no effect or usefulness on a belt driven system.

T_Bone

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Can't even use my name

03-09-2005 19:14:01




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to T_Bone, 03-09-2005 12:23:29  
T_bone, you are looking at this too technical. I know you don't measure the belt rpm's for any pratical reason. However, it was one of those stupid things to argue over and in this case we were concerned about the belts revolutions and not its lineal speed. I don't even know how it started and it isn't meant to be used for any calculations of anything. So I ask you again, assuming pulley rpm's remain the same, no belt slippage, and pulley sizes don't change do the rotations per minute of the belt itself change when the distance between pulleys change?

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T_Bone

03-10-2005 15:59:04




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-09-2005 19:14:01  
Hi CN,

One more time, your asking the question wrong and do not fully understand what your asking.

This is a math question and only doing the calculations will prove or disprove your question your really asking, hence my harping that you must understand what your asking.

Your question:
"So I ask you again, assuming pulley rpm's remain the same, no belt slippage, and pulley sizes don't change do the rotations per minute of the belt itself change when the distance between pulleys change?"

Answer: No! The belt "speed" (revolutions) stays the same as I already pointed out with my examples, 5498fpm+-.

Restated Question:
Does the belt "splice" revolutions change when the distance between pulleys change?

Answer:
Yes!

A belt 100" long, the belt "splice" would rotate twice for every one revolution when comparred to a belt 200" long, however the surface speed of the belt would remain the same, 5498fpm+-, on both belts.

Now do you uunderstand why I stated, "the belt appears to change rpm"?

It's the belt "splice" that causes the mind to assume the belt "speed" has changed when in fact the belt speed has not changed. It's the math that proved this.

To visualy see this, take two small wheels and use a rubberband for the belt, make a small offset crank handle on one wheel, mark the rubberband (splice) with a ink pin, set the wheels any distance apart.

Now rotate the crank and count the ink mark revolution. Next increase the distance between wheels centers and again rotate the crank and once again count the ink mark revolutions.

Observe only the ink mark distance traveled changed between the two different centers for every one revolution of the crank handle, however the belt speed does not change provided you rotated the wheel at the same speed during the two experiments.

Only If you rotate the crank handle faster or slower does the belt speed change.

T_Bone

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Can't even use my name

03-11-2005 10:23:15




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to T_Bone, 03-10-2005 15:59:04  
T_Bone! I am not asking about the belt speed as measured in feet/min or in/sec or what ever, I am asking about the revolutions the belt makes. If your belt is longer it has more total inches in it and if you are pulling those inches at the same rate then it would take longer to get 1000 inches pulled than it would to pull 100 inches. So if the belt is longer due to the pulleys being further apart than it would have to take longer to pull the entire belt around which would make your revolutions per minute less which means that with a greater distance between pulleys and obviously a longer belt your belt rpm's slow down, and I know you don't measure belt rpm's for any reason but here we are concerned with them. Step back and look at it, you are looking too hard my friend! Too smart for your own good!

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T_Bone

03-11-2005 12:34:04




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-11-2005 10:23:15  
Hi CN,

Show me the math to prove what your saying!

T_Bone



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John (MO)

03-08-2005 05:57:49




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
As the belt gets longer, it will take the BELT longer to make a complete trip around. The pulleys remain at the same speed. I've never heard of anyone measuring RPM of a BELT. You might measure inches per second or something like that on a belt.



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suds

03-08-2005 10:09:28




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to John (MO), 03-08-2005 05:57:49  
Rpm are only taken on shafts. feet per minute are entirely different in terms of measuring



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Indydirtfarmer

03-08-2005 05:53:10




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
IF I'm understanding your description correctly, the RPM's would stay the same. (Pulleys anyway) The belt speed (Inches per second ??) would stay the same, but with a LONGER belt, it would take more revolutions of the pulleys to make the LONGER belt revolve completely. DANG! Now I've confused myself....



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sawtooth

03-08-2005 05:51:44




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-08-2005 05:46:00  
Ever watch a steam engine running a belt to a threshing machine? You can see the joint in the belt coming and going back and forth. Now think if the distance was only a couple feet. The joint would have less distance to travel. So- the "feet per minute" stays the same but since the distance or length of the belt changes the r.p.m. or revolutions of the belt per minute changes too.



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MPK

03-08-2005 20:43:35




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to sawtooth, 03-08-2005 05:51:44  
The length of the belt has nothing to do with it. The effect is exactly the same as if there was no belt at all and the pulley could run from friction alone. Also it's the same as if instead of a belt it's a pair of gears meshed together so it's direct drive. I have figured this many times and it's very simple. Just take the motor shaft speed and multiply by motor pulley diameter and divide this by driven pulley diameter and this gives you driven shaft speed. This has always worked for me. It could be off just a little if the belt would ride up or down some in the pulleys, but it's very close.

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spud in mo

03-08-2005 22:34:45




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 Re: Settle this dispute in reply to MPK, 03-08-2005 20:43:35  
Apples and oranges, guys. The difference between surface speed and RPMs. Shafts are measured in RPM. True belt speed is measured in FPM or feet per minute. The only reason I can see to need to know how many times a belt goes around its sheves is if the belt had a metallic insert and you were using a prox for the perpose of timing for a production environment interface. Belts are generaly used to transfer mecanical energy from one device to another, changing speed if nessisary by varying the size of the sheves. Unless the timing of a belt is nessisary for operational reasons to know the timing or "RPM" as you put it, of the belt is pointless. However, your original statement is true. The further apart, or longer the belts are the more footage must pass for a single point of the belt to make one round.
spud in mo

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