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Copper or PVC?

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Can't even use

03-06-2005 17:56:54

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I have been busy building a new house and am just about ready for the plumbing. I had someone ask me last night whether I am using copper or PVC for the supply lines and I didn't have an answer. I know PVC is cheaper, easier, and faster so why would I use copper instead. Wouldn't they last just as long as each other? It seems like copper is used more often but can I justify the time and cost of it?

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CTJON

03-08-2005 18:54:25

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

Built my house and did all plumbing in CU except drains. Thought CU was best however after 4 years had through wall leaks continuing for about 2 years. Replaced all the Cu with CPCV had no problems for about 10 years. Suggest that you run both hot and cold water lines with 3/4" CPCV same fittings etc. Why 3/4"? The 1/2" requires many supporting hangers and tends to sag and not look professional. 3/4" is stiffer requiring fewer supports keeps looking straight & great.

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JeffCraw

03-08-2005 04:07:33

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

Another consideration in copper vs. PVC is the gradual breakdown and off-gassing Google search, I think you'll find that some very legitimate researchers (not granola kooks!) have concerns over the safety of PVC. All vinyls off-gas and release toxic chemicals- even though the plastic may remain structurally sound. Although PVC is probably fine for your drain lines (I've used it), I'd stick with copper or polyethylene for any water I was going to put in my mouth. Just something else to consider.

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Nolan

03-08-2005 03:23:36

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

I've got copper in my 100 year old house, and not sure how happy I am with it. Our area has problems with copper pinholing, and mine is no exception. Annoyingly enough, the most common lines to pinhole are the NEW ones. I've had several leaks after redoing the bathroom a few years ago.

Scale buildup inside copper pipes is also a problem around here, particularly on the hot water side. You really start losing flow after a few years.

As others have mentioned, I'd also suggest 3/4" main lines. Sure does help prevent the screams in the shower when someone flushes.

Having griped about copper, I probably will keep it as it goes with the house. I really don't want pvc in an old house purely for an esthetic reason.

The installation of copper is pretty easy. Not as easy as PVC, but still pretty easy. One of those $10 kits will get you through an entire house.

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leland

03-08-2005 00:44:12

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

Bought our home 12 yrs ago and it had iron pipe all plugged up cut it out and replacedit with all CPVP pipe and have had no problems. And CPVP is easier to splice into to repair or add more lines and once I started I was done in less than 2 hours and had water running in 3. Guy at lowes tried to sell me PVC said I needed it for cold but its easier to use cpvc this way you only need 1 tppe of fittings and glue and always keep a few extras on hand.

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Can't even use my own nam

03-07-2005 20:06:10

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Keep em coming guys... in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

Nice to have so many replys. Around here we usually used PVC for cold and obviously waste and vent and CPVC for hot. I forgot to mention I live in northern IN and we are sittin on 60 acres. Well water of course, 2 miles from homesite is the farm and other farm house where water is good but has alot of iron and a bit of sulfur from time to time at the farm where the well is over 130'. Just hard at the other house where it is only about 40'. If code permits the PVC and CPVC I am thinkin that is the way. Seems like our water leaves a lot of black stuff inside copper pipes. Still not totally sure though so keep the replys flowing.

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Mark - IN.

03-07-2005 18:22:33

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

Before I finished my Mom's basement, replaced all of her plumbing, and sweated with all new copper. I don't remember what it cost, but it wasn't cheap and took some work - more than I expected. But it sure came out nice and clean. Was a lot of work though. Lead free solder, and gotta have good flux. Gotta scuff the pipe ends and fitting insides with emery cloth real good. The flux I used was liguid and came in like a 8 or 12 ounce bottle - sucked that solder right up into the joints as fast as I could unrole it.

The house I have now has all PVC. I didn't put it in, but seems pretty good. I've delt with PVC some, and like copper, gotta scuff the ends of the pipe and fitting insides before putting together with sealant with fine sand paper. Sure is easier than copper, and cheaper. I prefer copper, but would bet that PVC will last a million years longer.

Mark

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Bus Driver

03-07-2005 15:43:54

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

Some codes do not permit PVC as supply lines inside the house- period. CPVC is permitted most places- maybe not parts of California yet. If you have water from a well, the CPVC might be the better choice. Some well water is murder on copper- it is in my area.

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john in la

03-07-2005 18:38:05

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Bus Driver, 03-07-2005 15:43:54

That fits us to a tee also.

We use CPVC around here because our well water will eat copper.
PVC is nice and cheep but does not last well with hot water so I just use CPVC on every thing.

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buickanddeere

03-07-2005 14:02:07

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

Copper with lead free solder. Water from a plastic pipe tastes like plastic. When you are it how about saving some insurance money and protecting your family. A Domestic Sprinkler system doesn't cost any more than a bit of carpet. Manditory in some municipalities. When at it wire the place for an alarm system. Install heat detectors in the garage, kitchen, laundry room and around the furnace/hot water heater. And smoke detectors everywhere except in the kitchen. A flood detector in the basement and a cold temp sensor incase the furnace quits in cold weather while you are away. Doesn't cost very much either for the peace of mind. Seems odd how people can spend an extra $10,000 on some luxary items for the house but can't find a few grand to protect thier family and possessions?

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Redmud

03-07-2005 10:12:35

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

I'm changing over from PVC to copper. The reason is, I did a search last summer for a deal on PVC, what I came up with was things like, bacteria will grow in plastic and it won't in copper. I don't know if this bacteria was a bad thing or not, I just didn't want it in my coffee. I have the kitchen changed over to copper, doing the rest of the house this summer. Do a search on the bacteria subject and see what you come up with. Like I said, I don't know if it's good or bad.

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LeJo

03-07-2005 09:33:08

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

First of all check your CODE. My case the city oked pvc, the county would not. Found small hole in copper a week after inspection. It was between the connections. Now pvc has been oked by county .
Am slowly changing mine over to all pvc, much easier and cheaper.

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Bill-KCKs

03-07-2005 08:31:13

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

One very interesting feature of the PEX tubing system is that every fixture is a "home run" to a manifold with its own valve, the same concept as the breaker box. I have no interest in this company but you can look at the concept here.

Bill

Manabloc System

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Mark - IN.

03-07-2005 18:43:09

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Bill-KCKs, 03-07-2005 08:31:13

Hey Bill, that's the stuff I seen in the cellar of the Amish place I almost bought. Blue and red tubes, valves and manifolds everywhere. Thought I was in a new space aged milk barn. Might be the greatest thing/stuff in the world.

Mark

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Thanks for the replys...

03-07-2005 08:15:51

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

I have to check on the code and make sure PVC is ok to use as I am leaning towards it more than the copper. I do realize you have to use CPVC for the hot water lines, I have seen when PVC was used and watched it get rubbery, stretch then burst. I don't really see any down side to PVC other than it cracking easier if it freezes but copper will too and if my house gets cold enough to freeze we have a big problem, the fiance found out about the girlfriend! HA HA!

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T_Bone

03-07-2005 08:54:07

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Thanks for the replys..., 03-07-2005 08:15:51

The PVC I've seen freeze, shatters into thousands of pieces, there's no rubber to it!

I like CU as it can be thawed easy inside walls or buried.

PEX, you best become your own parts supply house as it's very hard and expensive to find fittings and pipe just anywhere.

T_Bone

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Can't even use my name

03-07-2005 19:54:32

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to T_Bone, 03-07-2005 08:54:07

Yeah PVC does shatter when it freezes but when it has hot water in it is when it gets slinky like and bursts. I think ya read too fast. Are you one of the ones talking about using a welder to that frozen pipes? If so how does that work?

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T_Bone

03-08-2005 06:26:19

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-07-2005 19:54:32

Hi CN,

I've used regular PVC for temperory 120� hot water and although I've seen it soften some what, it's not what I would consider rubber like.

To use a welding machine for deforsting froozen CU, hook one end to the outside of the CU pipe and the other lead somewhere down the line. Turn on the amps and don't exceed the welding machines duty cycle rating and it will heat the pipe via resistance heating thus thawing the pipe. Takes about 100amps.

Most people will exceed the machines duty cycle rating thus burn out there transformer or generator.

T_Bone

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Mike M

03-07-2005 06:55:53

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

I mat be mistaken but isn't there a 3rd choice ? I thought I saw them use some kind of flexable plastic tubing on this old house show with only connections were at the ends and crimped on.

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Mark - IN.

03-07-2005 18:34:08

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Mike M, 03-07-2005 06:55:53

You know Mike, I forgot about that stuff. I almost bought an 1800's farm/house from some Amish. Only time I ever saw the stuff. House was retro fitted with it in the walls. Down in the cellar was at least 3/4" blue (cold) and red (hot) tubes everywhere curving up into the walls. I figured must've got a deal from an AG dealer and used for cheap plumbing. Never seen anything like it. Is also the first time ever saw a propane refridgerator too, and the last one - said they were taking it with them when sold.

Mark

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Can't even use my name

03-07-2005 08:09:40

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Mike M, 03-07-2005 06:55:53

You are correct, there is a flexible plastic too. I think it is the PEX that was referred to in another post. I think it is usually used in apartments and the such.

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txblu

03-07-2005 05:58:17

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

My house is 25 years old and built with pvc. Had copper when in a house built in town.

Had 0 problems with both. PVC is cheaper and easier to work. Just use CPVC for the hot water lines as it is rated to 180F whereas the reg pvc is not rated that high.

Mark

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bob02

03-07-2005 05:18:33

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

If you use copper you will find a schedule "L" and "M". For the 3/4 supply lines I would use L. It is a heavier wall and only costs a little more cash. I think at Lowes it was $2 more per 10 ft section of pipe. Good luck with the job.

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Scott Green

03-07-2005 04:33:47

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

Well , it depends..... . Some areas codes require copper. Copper has been around a lot longer , so you will see more. I like the combination of copper feed lines , and PVC drains. If your water is comming from anywhere other than public water system , you would want to have PH checked. If your PH checks high or low , the acids will in time eat through your copper lines. You may want to consider useing CPVC for feed lines for high or low PH. Another thing which will eat through(Corrode) copper lines is agressive solder flux. Or getting to much flux on inside of tubing , not cleaning off outside of joint after soldering. In other words sloppy workmanship. And there's more , but I don't have time.

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Midwest redneck

03-07-2005 01:39:50

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

PVC doesnt hold up in the real cold weather, Copper does though. If you are north of the mason dixon line I would strongly suggest copper supply lines. You would hate to come home from work one day and find your house flooded because of a broken water line.

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J.C. IN AZ.

03-06-2005 21:17:05

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

I would suggest using 3/4" CPVC for your entire System. PVC is Cold water only. My last house I built and lived in for 25 Years had CPVC and We had no problems at all and the new owners have had it for the last 5 years and they have no problems either.

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Farmered

03-06-2005 21:16:36

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

In this part of the country code requires that at least through the wall and ten feet out be copper to ground the system. You can go on from there with whatever yanks your chain. Ed

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JL Sargent

03-06-2005 18:17:07

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

Copper is King in this part of the country. I built my house 10yrs ago with copper. Not one leak or problem. My brother rented a house during that time with pvc supply lines. We worked on his pipes regularly. What we see here is: PVC supply to house, Copper network in house, PVC Drain Vent Waste or cast iron if you've money to burn (its quieter). Good luck with your house. Im thinking copper. Its alot nicer to look at.

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B.boy

03-06-2005 21:24:03

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to JL Sargent, 03-06-2005 18:17:07

Here all drain and waste lines in a house must be A.B.S. Water supply is pex or copper.

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03-06-2005 18:11:12

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to Can't even use my name, 03-06-2005 17:56:54

I put in CPVC and PVC for hot and cold water...20 years ago...not problem one. I needed to cut into it here and there..a snap. All my drain lines are PVC and I wouldn't have it any other way.

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dail

03-06-2005 20:25:11

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Re: Copper or PVC? in reply to bo, 03-06-2005 18:11:12

pvc is more expensive.

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