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Longer welder lead lines or extension cord for welder ?

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bill

12-26-2000 22:24:56




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Just purchased new Lincoln 225 ac/dc. Should I lengthen the lead lines or make up a long extension cord (30ft. of #10 wire) ? Also, in regards to the size of wire and breaker, the manual calls for #10 wire with 50 amp breaker. My certified electrician says this is o.k. up to 100 ft. I saw where others had posted using #6 wire, so where lies the truth ? About to hook up need answer !!!




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BFO

12-28-2000 07:31:44




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 Re: Longer welder lead lines or extension cord for welder ? in reply to bill, 12-26-2000 22:24:56  
I think Fred brought up a good point, use the best setup for what you plan to do. I personally went with 50ft. leads so that I could get at anything inside without tripping over the welding machine, or have to grind into it. Then, so that I could get to the back of a tractor trailer parked outside the door, I put a 50ft. extension cord on the back of the machine. I find more often than not quick repairs have to be made outside the door, while there is a "work-in-progress" cluttering up the shop.

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Irv

12-27-2000 20:59:30




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 Re: Longer welder lead lines or extension cord for welder ? in reply to bill, 12-26-2000 22:24:56  
I am not an electrician, but in the factories I have worked in always had short cords, some times very short, with long leads on welders. In some assembly plants, welders with long leads are mounted permanently overhead on the catwalks, with long leads to be dropped down when needed. Sounds extravagent, but the lines gotta roll. Irv



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Joe Evans

12-29-2000 21:54:48




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 Re: Re: Longer welder lead lines or extension cord for welder ? in reply to Irv, 12-27-2000 20:59:30  
Safety considerations in an industrial environment (or any environment for that matter)preclude the use of long power leads to welders. It is not very safe to temporarily string 480V power cords all over the place. So we go short input and long (very long where necessary) welding leads.



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Scott Green

12-28-2000 04:30:00




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 Re: Re: Longer welder lead lines or extension cord for welder ? in reply to Irv, 12-27-2000 20:59:30  
Your right Irv. The factory I once worked in , had welders all over the place. Most of them had short cords and long leads. They also had long extention cords for some welders , but they were hugh. Much bigger than the lead wire. Very heavy to pick up also.



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bob

12-29-2000 12:17:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Longer welder lead lines or extension cord for welder ? in reply to Scott Green, 12-28-2000 04:30:00  
power plant was same way short supply cables and long leads WE figured you could do more regulating with welder than have low power with too long extension cord. in one plant we had welderm on main floor and plugins for lead on every floor and worked good every thing was centrally grounded which helped as ground is half the battle



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Scott Green

12-27-2000 19:24:56




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 Re: Longer welder lead lines or extension cord for welder ? in reply to bill, 12-26-2000 22:24:56  
Something to keep in mind when it comes to electric/water. Your always better off pushing instead of trying to pull. In other words , better with shorter cord and longer leads.



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Steve U. S. Alloys

12-27-2000 14:43:33




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 Re: Longer welder lead lines or extension cord for welder ? in reply to bill, 12-26-2000 22:24:56  
There's now two books on wiring on the site if it will help you out. One is commercial and the other is residential.



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Fred OH

12-27-2000 13:02:12




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 Re: Longer welder lead lines or extension cord for welder ? in reply to bill, 12-26-2000 22:24:56  
If you are still confused about what the guys are telling you, compare the #10 wire with the size of the power cord wire coming out of the welder and you will see that they are not spoofing you. The feed line should be at least one size larger than that and if it is a fairly long run, two sizes larger. Now that all that is settled, we'll comment on the extension cord or welding lead question. If you're just gonna weld in the shop, an extension cord is fine. If you are gonna weld on top of a silo, your welder would look awful funny hanging fifty feet in the air while you welded ten feet away. In other words, use your own judgement on it. The guys don't know all the scenarios in your case. Personally in my judgement, I have found that you should have longer leads so that if you have to weld on something like galvanized steel you can take it outside when the wind is blowing and not have to breath those dangerous fumes. Also if you are cutting or grinding, the welder would be a lot better off more than 10 feet away. Keeps your equipment looking nicer. You don't have to have those fancy cable connectors to add more cable. Just purchase 4 copper terminal ends to fit cable ends and a bolt and nut and solder or silver solder on and bum some heavy duty shrink tubing (with glue inside) from a cable tv worker or holler at me, I got lots of it. L8R----Fred OH

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Steve Hansen

12-27-2000 10:51:46




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 Re: Longer welder lead lines or extension cord for welder ? in reply to bill, 12-26-2000 22:24:56  
Bill, I agree with the other posters. You will need #6 for a 50 amp circuit. The rule of thumb is 15 amps = #14, 20 amps = #12, 30 amps = #10, 40 amps = #8, and 50 amps = #6. These values are based on reasonable runs from the panel. If you are going to be using your welder in several locations in the shop run a 50 amp drop to each of them. The material cost will be about the same as a quality heavy guage extension cord and you will not be tripping over it all the time. If you have a post in the center of your shop consider putting one there. Steve

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Greg

12-27-2000 11:36:23




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 Re: Re: Longer welder lead lines or extension cord for welder ? in reply to Steve Hansen, 12-27-2000 10:51:46  
Reasonable runs, to me would be staying within a 2% line-drop. 50 amp @ 240 volts single-phase
# 6 at 115'
# 4 at 185'
These are one way distances.
# 4 copper in our area isn't real common.
IMO on this, sizing up a wire maybe the best money one can spend.

The book "Wiring Simplified" is worth the money for the line-drop tables alone.



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Steve U.S. Alloys

12-27-2000 06:08:03




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 Re: Longer welder lead lines or extension cord for welder ? in reply to bill, 12-26-2000 22:24:56  
Hi Bill,
I went through a rather frustrating experience in regard to obtaining the proper information for wire size on a 50 amp circuit. Two professionals gave me two different answers. I have also seen information in the manuals as you describe that seems to conflict. I was finally convinced that #6 is the size that can take 50 amps if that point is reached. The #10 will overheat. A 30 amp circuit is the limit for #10 in my understanding. There is a great deal of liability involved for not only those who DIY but for those who advise in these matters pertaining to wiring. Consider contacting your local electrical utility for their recommendation. They are the one's I listened to. They know the local codes too. Sometimes you can buy wire directly from them at a very good price. I agree with Ken that you should not cut corners here. A great deal of piece of mind comes with having a professional involved.

I would inject a slightly different point of view when addressing your question as to leads vs. extension cord. I agree that dragging the machine around is a "pita". Those smaller machines aren't that bad though if you have the running gear installed. I beleive that in the long run it will add years to the life of the machine to use the extension cord rather than long leads. The machine doesn't work as hard. I would also advise that you do not store long leads by coiling them and hanging them on there respective sides of the machines cabinet. This leaves the welder positioned in the center of a magnetic field.

I may add "Wiring Simplified" to our web site. I came across it when adding the welding text books and it looks to be a very good publication. Much bigger than the pocket manual I remember seeing in years past. Might be some useful guidelines in there.
Steve

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Fred OH

12-29-2000 10:42:15




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 Re: Re: Longer welder lead lines or extension cord for welder ? in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 12-27-2000 06:08:03  
I might as well jump in here and finish what Steve started as to don't coil the leads up on either side of the welder. Although I don't think there would be any mutual inductance (coupling) here between the field and the transformers inside. It will make the stuff that you grind off with the grinder (ferrous metal) stick to the top of the welder. He told us not to coil them but he didn't say what to do with them. Figure eight them and you will be okay. I was once standing behind a portable Lincoln rig BSing and owner was using welder. Someone had laid a 9/16" wrench in the center of a coil of lead on the back of truck. Everytime he struck an arc that wrench would stand straight up in the air due to the magnetic field of the coil. Interesting, but, if you go out and try it, you must have a DC welder cause (It won't work on AC) it will probably magnetize your wrench. If you do magnetize something and don't have a demagnetizer, throw it down hard on the floor and it is supposed to take it out. Please don't use Snap-On or Mac tools, they don't bounce very good.:>} L8R----Fred OH

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Gordon in IN

12-27-2000 06:49:28




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 Re: Re: Longer welder lead lines or extension cord for welder ? in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 12-27-2000 06:08:03  
Steve, Definitely use the extension cord. Keep the welding leads short (original) length. 50 amps is 50 amps, ask the electrican or wire supplier what size wire to use to hook up a 50 amp circuit for a 50 amp electric range/cook stove circuit. I will be very supprised if they recommend anything smaller than #6. USE ONLY COPPER WIRE! Check prices, you may find a short left over (remnant) of larger (#4) wire that they will sell for a lower price. The only limiting factor will be the size of the "lugs" or connectors in the plug and the receptical. (the manufacturers do not put those "LARGE" connectors in them for use with #10 wire.) Also use anti-corrision paste on all connections including the blades and sockets in the plugs and recepticals.
Keep the welding leads away from your body when welding; NEVER let the leads wrap around your body. Refer to cautions and warnings in the Lincon manuals. Good luck, Gordon in IN

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T_Bone

12-27-2000 00:49:28




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 Re: Longer welder lead lines or extension cord for welder ? in reply to bill, 12-26-2000 22:24:56  
Hi Bill, I would find another electrician as you will be very disappointed in #10 at 50amps, one it's not allowed for a 100ft run per NEC, two it will continously kick the breaker, it's a safety hazard. Call a couple of wire suppliers and ask for the proper size wire to confirm for a 50amp at 100ft and you'll see what I mean.

It's always best to add welding leads as the amp/voltage drop is less with a more stable arc. The welding machine also will not be in the way. Welding leads are bad enough but add the machine and it's a PITA. For 50ft use 150amp lead, for 100ft add 50ft of 250amp lead and 50ft of 150amp lead or 100ft of 250amp lead and 20ft 150amp at the stinger. The Tweeco lead connectors are the best. There was a guy selling new 100ft rolls of 200amp lead for $50 on Ebay awhile back, from NJ?. My shipping cost to Arizona was more than buying it local.

If you don't know about electricity, study and have a qualified electrician help you. If you do it youself and it doesn't kill you or your family memebers and burns your house/shop down your insurance will not pay! This isn't the time to go cheap.

T_Bone

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