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Power surge?

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RustyFarmall

02-18-2005 08:18:27




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What are the chances of this happening? Here"s what happened. In out kitchen there are 2 ceiling lights, one of these is a ceiling fan with a light kit and has one bulb. The other light is a common ceiling light fixture with two bulbs. Both of these are controlled from one switch so that they are either both on or both off. The other evening my wife flipped the switch to turn the lights on, and all three bulbs flashed and burned out at the same time. A little too coincidental for me to believe that all three bulbs were just ready to go. What do you all think?

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raymond bagwell

02-19-2005 21:06:10




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-18-2005 08:18:27  
If it is a loose neutral which sounds like it could be the problem should not be isolated to the lights in the kitchen alone. It is usually the items with the highest resistance tha burn up when a netural is lost. TV"s and those kind of items. If you wired the house you should know if the kitchen lights are on a multiwire circuit. If you did the wiring properly no kitchen plugs will be on the circuit with the lights. That is the requirements of the code. 2 2o amp circuits to supply kitchen receptacles, can include the dinning room. I don"t know why but seems like most of the time when a bulb blows it is when you flip the switch on or jar it somehow. I had a situtaion one time on a job I did where 2 light fixtures on the same switch located not 5 feet apart one was always blowing the bulb and the other one would not. We are talking about a wire running from one fixture to the other. I finally determined it had to be in the fixture. I never knew what really what was wrong with it but it had to be the fixture. To beat that both fixtures were the same kind. I just hope you find your problem if you have one to eliminate any safety concerns. Good luck.

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Kevin Bismark

02-18-2005 16:57:16




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 twice in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-18-2005 08:18:27  
I typed this once, why did it show up again, a software problem??



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CNKS

02-19-2005 09:09:07




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 Re: twice in reply to Kevin Bismark, 02-18-2005 16:57:16  
You hit "Post Message" it was slow, you hit it again and got both -- happens all the time. Or you double clicked the 1st time. No matter how slow, eventually the first click will post.



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Kevin Bismark

02-18-2005 16:52:40




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-18-2005 08:18:27  
Well, I am an electrician and I am now home from work, so maybe I should stop right here, but I wonder do you have any blinking lights in your house, did these lights blink once in a while, or did anything else act strange?? If it"s not cheep bulbs I would have to agree that you may have a loose neutral connection some place, and it may not even be in your house, had a church a while ago that had some expensive sound equipment that burned up, and when I came over there to look at the parking lot lights I took my hot gloves with me and decided to check the power company connections at the secondary of the transformer as long as I was there and found a loose neutral, if you don"t find anything in your house call the power company and have them check their connections and never get close to them by the time you realize you made a mistake you would be dead or close to it, I don"t like dealing with 600 volts to 13,800 volts but you get used to it, sort of, in large industrial buildings we have the 13,800 volts brought right into the electrical room and then drop it to 480 volts or 4,160 volts or something else to run across the plant to other electrical rooms, don"t hesitate to call the power company to check things out, It is fairly common to find a bad connection on the utility side of things at least it is here with the wide change in temps that we have in Minnesota, just remember to never do anything stupid...

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Kevin Bismark

02-18-2005 16:52:31




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-18-2005 08:18:27  
Well, I am an electrician and I am now home from work, so maybe I should stop right here, but I wonder do you have any blinking lights in your house, did these lights blink once in a while, or did anything else act strange?? If it"s not cheep bulbs I would have to agree that you may have a loose neutral connection some place, and it may not even be in your house, had a church a while ago that had some expensive sound equipment that burned up, and when I came over there to look at the parking lot lights I took my hot gloves with me and decided to check the power company connections at the secondary of the transformer as long as I was there and found a loose neutral, if you don"t find anything in your house call the power company and have them check their connections and never get close to them by the time you realize you made a mistake you would be dead or close to it, I don"t like dealing with 600 volts to 13,800 volts but you get used to it, sort of, in large industrial buildings we have the 13,800 volts brought right into the electrical room and then drop it to 480 volts or 4,160 volts or something else to run across the plant to other electrical rooms, don"t hesitate to call the power company to check things out, It is fairly common to find a bad connection on the utility side of things at least it is here with the wide change in temps that we have in Minnesota, just remember to never do anything stupid...

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MarkB_MI

02-18-2005 16:23:38




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-18-2005 08:18:27  
Another vote for a bad neutral. If it's a multiwire (split) circuit, a loose neutral would cause current from the other side to flow through the light circuit. If it's not on a multiwire circuit, I'd monitor the voltage on each phase. I lived in my house for several years before I realized that the neutral and ground circuits were never properly connected. I had a lot less trouble with electronics blowing up after I fixed that problem.

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Hermit

02-18-2005 15:51:44




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-18-2005 08:18:27  
Would these lights happen to be on a GFCI circuit? I've had a nearby lightning strike actually blow a resistor in a GFCI receptacle and cause it to malfunction. Just a thought.



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dr.sportster

02-18-2005 13:13:19




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-18-2005 08:18:27  
Hey Rusty Farmall, Dont worry in a few more hours the electricians will be home from work.



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RustyFarmall

02-18-2005 13:45:41




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to dr.sportster, 02-18-2005 13:13:19  
dr. sportster, I'm really not too worried about it. I know my wiring is fine, afterall, I did it myself, and you know as well as I that if you want it done right you do it yourself. I'm just getting tired of replacing light bulbs in multiples.



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dr.sportster

02-18-2005 16:39:02




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-18-2005 13:45:41  
I was referring to all my babbling advice.Not that you should get an electrician.I just figured by later on the topic will have many more voices.



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RustyFarmall

02-18-2005 12:57:35




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-18-2005 08:18:27  
I guess that I should also mention that the rewiring was done by myself, following the reccomendations and expert advice of a professional who was physically uncapable of doing the work for me. I went the extra mile and spent the money for more wire, rather than double up the circuits like had been done in the original installation. I also used nothing smaller than #12 wire. There just wasn't enough difference in the price to make me even consider #14.

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Ralph, Ohio

02-18-2005 12:35:37




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-18-2005 08:18:27  
Question for you Mr. Farmall, did the fan also come on when the light switch was turned on? If it was also powered up at the same instant as the light bulbs I"m trying to figure out how the inductance of the motor windings might have contributed to the untimely demise of the light bulbs.



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RustyFarmall

02-18-2005 12:45:44




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to Ralph, Ohio, 02-18-2005 12:35:37  
No, the fan had already been turned off. We don't use it during the winter.



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RandyB

02-18-2005 12:10:31




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-18-2005 08:18:27  
I agree on the loose neutral somewhere. It is common in kitchens for electricians to run a split circuit to save wire and the two circuits share a common neutral. The neutral could be loose anywhere from the mains box to a junction box in the wall or ceiling. If it is loose or poor contact, you want to fix it soon as under heavy loads you are running risk of fire.



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rwva

02-18-2005 10:59:47




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-18-2005 08:18:27  
A bad neutral is the first suspect.

If that looks OK ... think about where you are on the power lines. The closer you are to anything with switchable taps ... the higher the chance the following may apply. The electric companies use switchable taps to raise/lower voltage to get power to flow on distribution lines. Sometimes it doesn"t work out right. We use to have bulbs blow in batches (not on the same switch). Had a recording meter put on our lines and found out they would jump to 135 volts when the power company changed taps. Roger

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RustyFarmall

02-18-2005 12:08:42




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to rwva, 02-18-2005 10:59:47  
That just might be what is going on. This incident is not the first of this nature, although it is the first time that 3 went out together. House has been completely rewired with new underground service entrance less than 3 years ago. Don't think I have any problems there.



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dr.sportster

02-18-2005 12:37:41




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-18-2005 12:08:42  
Underground eliminates the loose splice above meter pan from the power co.Then there is none.You didnt say it happened before.Do what Randy said tighten each neutral in that circ check the neutral lug in your panel.Where there is loosness there will be heat and also a fire haz besides annoying bulb blowout.What happens is the other phase kitchen circuit feeds its A phase then back to the loose splice [stillAphase 110volts].The switch is B phase sharing loose neutral with that B phase from the switch.Momentarily the bulbs get both phases 220 v until the loose splice kicks in and returns both Aand B phase to the panel.Sounds crazy but I could draw it and its easy to understand.Something else in the kitchen on A phase like an oven light or whatever would have to be on for this to happen.

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Red Dave

02-18-2005 09:15:27




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-18-2005 08:18:27  
I'd say the chances are slim. Being of a suspicious nature and not being prone to believe in ghosts or UFO's, I'd look for a rational reason for it.

My first thought would be to check the voltage balance on both 120 volt sides of the incoming power. A bad neutral can cause voltage unbalances that would pop the lightbulbs. Just check the voltage from each side to ground. They should be the same or at least very close. If you find something wrong, you can get it fixed If nothing is wrong, you will have peace of mind.

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Bob

02-18-2005 09:56:46




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to Red Dave, 02-18-2005 09:15:27  
About 8 years ago we moved into a different house.

There was a large basement with lots of lights. (Lots of 200 Watt incandescents, so there was high inrush current.) Occasionally, when someone would flip on the basement lights, weird electical stuff would occur in other parts of the house. Finally, one day I flipped on the cellar lights, and a surge suppressor in the living room, to which my son's medical equipment was connected blew, and actually started smoking.

I traced the problem to a loose neutral connection at the buss bar in the (almost new) entrance panel.

The odd thing was, nothing else in the house seemed to ever screw up the voltage balance, just when the basement lights were turned on!

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dr.sportster

02-18-2005 09:29:24




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to Red Dave, 02-18-2005 09:15:27  
I mean a lost neutral REd Dave means a loose neutral.A loose neutral at the splice above the meter pan could be it [that what Red Dave is saying].This is very likely also.In my area the power company will check this for free.that can cause all your electronic stuff thats plugged in to blowout.



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dr.sportster

02-18-2005 09:22:00




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to Red Dave, 02-18-2005 09:15:27  
A bad neutral will cause all the receptacles in multi wire branch circuits to read both phases or 208 240 depending on the supply.



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dr.sportster

02-18-2005 08:33:33




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 Re: Power surge? in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-18-2005 08:18:27  
Maybe she flicked the switch really fast.She flicked the switch faster than the speed of light?Seriously are you using a cheap brand of lightbulb or something.Youll need a meter that provides ticker tape type readings every so often to catch the power company.Then they wil deny everything,tell you that your meter is not calibrated properly like theirs is and deny everything some more then leave.

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