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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

OFF GRID ELECTRIC

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Smark

02-07-2005 14:55:58




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I plan on building on my Property this Spring. It is located about 3/4 mile from the nearest electric Pole. I am thinking of going with Solar/Generator then eventually with a windmill. I am located in Michigans Thumb. Is there anyone else out there off the Grid, especially in Michigan or northern US with any useful info I could/should use? Does Solar work as well as the salesmen say? Is there anything else I should watchout for? Thanks!

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dr.sportster

02-10-2005 09:36:12




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 Re: OFF GRID ELECTRIC in reply to Smark, 02-07-2005 14:55:58  
Smark,Yes watch out for large stones as the auger bores into the earth for the poles that will bring electricity to your place.Ha ha Im so hilarious.



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buickanddeere

02-09-2005 18:15:14




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 Re: OFF GRID ELECTRIC in reply to Smark, 02-07-2005 14:55:58  
Info maybe out of state but it's still valid. Some scary statistics in there about connections to standby generators as well.

Link

http://www.gov.on.ca/OMAFRA/english/engineer/generators/index.html



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Cliff (VA)

02-09-2005 16:48:51




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 Re: OFF GRID ELECTRIC in reply to Smark, 02-07-2005 14:55:58  
I am in the process of building a new house. My electric was ~800' to the closest pole.

The power company charged me $190 for the temporary electric installation. They put in 3 poles, crossed 3 new easements, and attached to my temporary power pole. What a deal! The permenant installation (~100' underground is only $350)

You might want to look into it. It might be cheaper than you think.

Good Luck

Cliff (VA)

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Midwest redneck

02-09-2005 06:09:23




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 Re: OFF GRID ELECTRIC in reply to Smark, 02-07-2005 14:55:58  
A guy I know moved to Idaho 5 years ago. He had to pay $10,000 to have a power line ran about 3/4 of a mile. He had thought about a generator only but after thinking about maintenance and relability he paid the $10k and that was that. Have you priced the cost of the power line?



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ScottP

02-08-2005 09:54:57




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 Re: OFF GRID ELECTRIC in reply to Smark, 02-07-2005 14:55:58  
Mark
My advice is do all the research you can.
Are you planning to live on the property full time? If its just for the weekends and vacations then T-bone's set up may work for you.

If you are planning on living there full time you will need to up grade your system a lot.
If you check around you will find some good deals.
I bought my solar panel from a dealer in Michigan. Was the best deal I could find. Free shipping if I bought 20 75 watt panels. Yes I bought the 20 panels. Check ebay.

As for batteries. Dont waste your time or money on golf cart batteries. There are much better options out there. I got used forklift batteries from work. Their 750 amp hour batteries. I plan on replacing them this summer with two new ones at about $1500 each. These batteries will last at least 10 years or more with proper care.

On wind generators.
They do make noise. However they are no worse than listening to all the noise you hear living in town. I dont mind the noise. I just think free power when I hear them.
They are not meant to run the system on their own.
They dont run all the time. They are like a trickle charger when they do run. On an average day my solar panels shut off around one in the afternoon.

On gensets.
Get a gas drive welder. You can buy two gas drive welders for what you can buy one genset for off grid use costs. Plus you have a welder. They run just as smooth or smoother. You can set them up to run on propane. Safer and cheaper than gas or diesel.

Living off the grid is a life style. You have to want to do it. You have to change the way you think about how you live. Its not like living in town. I have been off the grid for over 16 years. My wifes family has been off the grid for over 100 years.

Scott

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T_Bone

02-09-2005 05:13:30




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 Re: OFF GRID ELECTRIC in reply to ScottP, 02-08-2005 09:54:57  
Hi Scott,

It would be interesting to here how your using the 1500w of PV's ie: how you have them configured, on a sun tracker?, etc;

What kind and size invertors are you using?

Gees diesel is pretty cost effective vs LP and diesel is surley much safer than LP. The older IDI diesel 40hp to 50hp engines use about 1.15gal/hr and some of the newer DI 30hp diesels are using .6gal/hr.

T_Bone



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ScottP

02-09-2005 08:16:18




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 Re: OFF GRID ELECTRIC in reply to T_Bone, 02-09-2005 05:13:30  
T-Bone
I have my panels hooked up in series parallel.
For 24 volts. I have them mounted on the roof of my shop, they face the west. They get the most sun that direction. I get to much and to strong of winds for a tracker. I made my own mounting frame.

For inverters I have 2 3624 Trace inverters stacked. This gives me 7200 watts. I'm pulling 220 off them to the breaker panel in the house.
These are a modified step sine wave inverter.
Over 95% effient, I have one Trace 2524 hooked up to my generator for charging the batteries and extra 120v when needed.

Now about diesel being safer than propane. Have you ever seen a 500 gal diesel storage tank that wasn't a mess. They turn the color of the local dust because the leak. Every storage tank I've ever seen was that way.
Where I live we have to worry about fires'. If you put a 500 gal. diesel tank next to a 500 gal. propane tank in a forrest fire, the propane tank will still be there with fuel in it. My propane supplier sells both I talked to them quite a bit when I was setting up. As for the cost. The price of diesel is about a dollar more a gallon than propane in my area. Even in bulk, and we have about five refineries within 25 miles of here. I can look down in the valley and see three of them from my house. And our fuel is still the highest in the nation.

Scott

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T_Bone

02-07-2005 23:29:18




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 Re: OFF GRID ELECTRIC in reply to Smark, 02-07-2005 14:55:58  
Hi Mark,

I boondock camp 100% for 6mths at a time and been 100% solar in my RV for the past 5yrs. I use two 64w unbreakable Unisolar PV's with a MorningStar charge controller (CC), About $725.
Each US64 PV, about $325eh, will putout 15.5v at 4amps full sun and 2amps in cloudy weather or at dusk/dawn.

For battery's the Trojan T-105, 6v 105amp/hr batterys (same as golf carts batterys) are the best bang for the buck, about $68eh.

I use about 30amp/hrs per day and two 12v 105amp/hr battery's keep up with my usage demand. The 12v battery's won't last as long as the T-105 and will need replaced every two years where the T-105 will typically get 6yrs before replacement. I would suggest no less than four T-105 battery's and 6 would be better.

Stay with 12v appliances as much as you can. Some common items tho, it's cheaper to use a invertor with a on/off switch so you can use the invertor with the appliance then turn it off. Invertors suck alot of battery amps.

If you careless or don't watch your battery usage then you will need to use more PV's and battery's.

For laundry, then a genset with a LP dryer is most cost effective. At the same time you do Laundry, float charge (also called equalizing) your battery's with a 115v charger as this keeps the plates from collecting too much sulfur thus will shorten battery life. Your can also equalize (over charge for a short time) your batterys with your PV's by-passing the CC.

I use 10gal LP per week for hot water, cooking, refrigerator and forced air furance. That would be a good figure upto about 400sft for 75� days and 45� nights.

Surflo water pumps are the best and will produces 3gpm at 35psi. This is enough water pressure and flow for a shower "without" someone using any other facuet at the same time. Need more water flow then add another pump in parallel. Use a standard bladder tank in the system.

For lites, then use 12v flourscent. Here you will need to add a small battery#2 room centraly located in the house. The battery room needs to be vented to the outside and sealed off to the inside of the house. The vent is easy as you top vent thru the roof and bring down a 3" PVC inside that vent to with-in 12" of the floor. Cold air sinks in the 3" PVC supply air pipe and exhaust thru the vent in the roof. No fan required. This stops hydrogen gas build up in the storage room.

Your battery#2 room will have heavy gauge wire ran to your main storage battery's to keep it recharged. Your lite amperage demand comes off battery#2 to the lites/Tv/etc in the house. Using the battery room keeps you from having to use extreamely large wires from the main battery storage bank.

You can also use a solar water heater instead of LP. See my link below to my simple system that will keep up with house demand for laundry, showers, washing and or aux space heating depnding of storage tank size.

I personally would stay away from wind generators as there too noisey day time and night time.

T_Bone

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Mikey1

02-07-2005 17:56:07




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 Re: OFF GRID ELECTRIC in reply to Smark, 02-07-2005 14:55:58  
Smark,

Up here in North Idaho we have a LOT year-rounders living off the grid. I"ve included a link to the local pro"s website, if for nothing else than a little education.

Solar in the thumb? I looked into it while I was living in the Soo but the winds, temps, and ice build-up made it impractical.

Scott

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jdemaris

02-07-2005 15:49:47




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 Re: OFF GRID ELECTRIC in reply to Smark, 02-07-2005 14:55:58  
There are a lot of variables involved, including what you need to run at this property. I know many people with camps or part-time vacation houses that are off the grid, but that's a lot different then doing it full-time. My neighbor did it since 1965. Started out as a hippie commume at an old farm with no power. Years went on, people grew up and left. He stayed with one girl and they raised a family of three kids. She left last year, and his new wife couldn't take living that way. So, they moved somewhere that has power. They started out with solar and a bank of storage batteries. Later, they added a wind generator. With all that, they still kept an 8000 watt gasoline generator for high current jobs. Every morning they ran the generator to run the deep water well pump, with which they'd fill a large water tank that was set up high. Once full, it gravity fed to the house. Hot water and clothes dryer were propane - the propane dryer had a DC drum motor. Heat was mostly wood with non-vented propane space heaters for backup. They had two refrigerators, one kerosene and the other propane. There are lots of things on the market for living off the grid. Solar panels have improved, but not to an astounding degree. There are low-voltage, low-flow deep well pumps that work well when set up properly. I'm building a cabin in the Adirondacks where no power is available. Even it was, my wife and I wouldn't want it. When we go there, it's nice to have no phone and no TV (cell phone won't work there). But, it's a get-away camp, not a full-time residence. So, I'm installing solar and storage batteries - but no wind generator along with gas and kerosene appliances. I drilled a well 210' deep and it wound up being an artisian - so I stuck a cheap hand-powered pitcher pump in it for now. If you haven't already, check out some of the non-electric stuff at these two places:

Link

http://www.lehmans.com/index.jsp

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Bob

02-07-2005 15:46:25




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 Re: OFF GRID ELECTRIC in reply to Smark, 02-07-2005 14:55:58  
Have you looked at some of the 'net sites for off-grid power, such as OTHEROWER? Lots of ideas and information to wade through there!



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Gerald J.

02-08-2005 08:25:20




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 Re: OFF GRID ELECTRIC in reply to Bob, 02-07-2005 15:46:25  
The crew at Home Power magazine live and work off grid. The have a web site for their magazine and sell CD-ROM of back issue collections. There is a ton of good information there.

The nicest power source is a mountain stream for water power. They found that PV is more useful and wind because it works more often and takes far less care.

One consulting engineer in NM with a wind generator admitted it was less cost effective, but he just liked having that giant pin wheel over his abode.

Gerald J.

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