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household stand by generator question

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Butch(OH)

12-29-2004 07:57:57




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Thanks for the help below on my plug question, with the power being out forever around here I am looking into a better setup than my 3500 B/S powered job and extension cords. I have plenty of power units (tractors) around and I am checking into PTO genertors. I have looked at several in the 12-13000 watt range that require 25 or so HP at full load. They develope around 50 amps on 220 and around 100 on 110. I understand that's not going to run the house with every light, computer, hair drier and TV running but fuel gets to be a consideration too. My question is would a generator with 50 amp 220 capacity keep us reasonably comfortable? meaning I can run the well, furnace, 1 refrigerator, 1 freezer a few lights and the wife's TV? I can add up wattage or amps from nameplates but I dont know about starting loads like my well pump and how to figure that. The well and appliance people are making hay around here right now from all the burned up equipment caused by overloaded or mal adjusted generators. Thanks again for any info.

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Rustyj14

12-31-2004 09:45:38




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Butch(OH), 12-29-2004 07:57:57  
After reading these posts, just remember--have a qualified electrician make the auxiliary generator hook-up for you, with the necessary line cutoffs! I heard of one guy in my area who hooked his generator into the house with a double male pronged extension cord!! This is a sure way to electrocute the electric company lineman when he comes to fix the problem!! And, ruin your life forever, too! by: Rustyj

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ScottP

12-30-2004 09:21:32




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Butch(OH), 12-29-2004 07:57:57  
Butch
I ran my house and shop off a generator for 14 years before I went solar. Ignore all the B.S. about what a certian size generator will run. Who cares? What you HAVE to do is find out how big a generator you need, by measuring what you use. B&D is right don't buy a genset by price. Buy one that will run what you have or more. Here is the problem with a pto genset. Are you willing to hook your tractor up to the genset and leave it there? Imagine this, You and the wife and kids go to the in-laws for dinner. You get home and find the power is out. But your tractor is out in the field hooked to the hay rake. Come to find out the power went off 30 mins. after you left for the in-laws. House is colder than a well diggers you know what. Wife and kids are cranky. You have to haul yourself out to get the tractor.
I think you can see where I'm going here. A pto genset is great if your at home when the power goes out. Do yourself a favor and get a self-contained unit.
It will cost you more but in the long run, it will save you more, in time and hassels.
Any good company or electrican will figure out what you need to have if you buy from them and have them install it. Another problem with stand by gensets is people never test run them. We have three emergency gensets at work. They are set to auto run once a week and we manualy test run them once a week.
Scott

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NC Wayne

12-29-2004 21:49:23




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Butch(OH), 12-29-2004 07:57:57  
All I've got is an 8500 Watt coupled to an air cooled Lister diesel and it keeps me going just fine. I made it for over a week last winter withoug any major inconvienences. My water heater is the biggest load at 4500 watts so for showers I turn it on and let it heat up with the well pump off and then switch it off and the well on before I get in. As far as heating, it depends on wether you have a heat pump or gas pack. The gas pack it'll handle with no problem since all that's running is the blower unit. For a heat pump it's about the same as long as the auxiliary/emergency heat strips are disabled. If they are allowed to come on they usually draw in the 50 amp range by theirself. I'd love to have something a little larger, but the one I've got now will run for nearly 12 hours on less than 5 gallons od diesel so with a 15 gallon tank it's real easy to keep it going without alot of hassel. Depending on what all your wanting to run and how much of it you want to run all at once you can usually get by with alot smaller generator than you think you need. It's not a bad thing to have "extra power" but the potential for that extra means a larger engine, more fuel, and more maintenance just to have power available that you might not really need. Just my .02

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Dusty MI

12-29-2004 18:31:01




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Butch(OH), 12-29-2004 07:57:57  
Butch, if you get a belt driven generator you can configure the pulleys so you can run it on a larger tractor and run at part throttle, for better fuel economy. Hang it on the side frame and run off the belt pulley of the WD/WD-45. You must turn it at the proper speed to maintain the 60 cycle.
I would think that the size you are looking at would serve you well as long as you don't try to use it on things use electricty to produce heat.

Good Luck,
Dusty

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TomTX

12-29-2004 15:48:19




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Butch(OH), 12-29-2004 07:57:57  
I use my Miller Bobcat welder. It has 18 HP V-Twin Kohler, and is rated at 8000 watt continous. AND, the best part, I have a really good AD/DC welder mounted on a trailer fro use all over the farm.



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buickanddeere

12-29-2004 12:47:40




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Butch(OH), 12-29-2004 07:57:57  
As you have figured out,if you already own a small diesel tractor a pto generator is the way to go. An 18HP tractor will just run with no reserve and use 100% of rated power to operate a 12,000W generator at full output. 2HP per KW is the general rule of thumb. I hope 50amp hasn't been chosen since that's the common size of home electric range and welder receptacles. I wonder if all those people with burned up under sized generators and equipment ruined with spikes, wrong frequency, low voltage etc. Understand that saving a few bucks on a generator has cost them more than doing it right. And left them is a worse mess than if they had never owned one?

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Leland

12-29-2004 16:45:36




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to buickanddeere, 12-29-2004 12:47:40  
Buick&deere I have been watching this close, with a 5500 watt generator just how much of the house could I run at a time and not tear up generator. Plan on needing it for sump pump furance ref and maybe tv this would probley be to much of a load to try to run at once would'nt it.



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buickanddeere

12-29-2004 19:49:30




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Leland, 12-29-2004 16:45:36  
Have to watch the ratings on generators. Some times the large print rating has "peak"in small print beside it. If it's 5500W then that's 23.0 amps on either line with a non reactive loads like a resistive heater. Motor loads,welders, ballasts with windings have lagging current and reactive current which loads up the wiring but does no work. That's 23 amps per line, not 20 on one and 26 on the other. Motor isn't overloaded but half the windings are. As previously stated most people have no idea and purchase their standby generator on price rather than capacity. And don't understand it's better to run a few loads continuos instead of too many loads for a few minutes then smoking the equipment. That 5500 will run 55 one hundred watt bulbs. Starting motors is another situation all together. A 100 amp 240 home service is good for 32 electrical HP. It will even run 32 electrical HP worth of motors ( if power factor was 1.0, we will imagine it is). Starting this motor load will require 129 to 320 HP for a brief time. Your home service can do it as it's connected to millions of HP generating equipment. Your home 5500 generator is connected to 9 or 11HP. When that's maxed out, there is no more and rpms fall. So that 5500W generator can only start a sustained run up of a 240V 3/4HP to 2HP motor load. Depending on it's type of manufacture and type of load. That 5500 may well run up 7HP worth of common barn ventilation fans. But a 1HP 240V piston air or freon compressor may stall that 5500 watt generator flat on it's face. So it all depends. Calculate motors by their starting inrush, not their running current. 120 motor loads are even worse as the generator has only 1/2 of it's windings in use. So calculate 120 motor inrush as if the generator was 2750W. Yes I know some larger loads do get started but it's just hoping there is enough flywheel momentum in the rotating engine/generator. And the breakers/overloads hold during the extended low voltage, low frequency and high current start period. Don't bet on it. After a few tries like that is when the smoke really begins to show.

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Leland

12-29-2004 21:23:31




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to buickanddeere, 12-29-2004 19:49:30  
most I have saw have 7500 surge for starting then 5500 continous,so I would be better off it sounds to move up to around 75-8000 continous then from what I read in your post



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buickanddeere

12-30-2004 10:05:22




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Leland, 12-29-2004 21:23:31  
Leland

What sort of electrical loads are there on your place? Well pump and type? Freezer/fridges? Heat pump/AC,forced air combustion or electric heat? Water heater type? Amount of lighting & type of kitchen stove? Will there be equipment with block heater and water pipe heat tracing to operate? Feed conveyors and vent fans for livestock? I just get by with a 5500W 9HP. However I'm cheating big time. There is a power factor correction capacitor now mounted at the main panel to keep P.F. at near 1.0. And the line in from the generator is just 240 plus a ground. Feeding the transfer switch plug is a 10Kva transformer with 120/240V windings on the low side. The high side is left disconnected. So the transformer can handle load imbalances up to 46 amps on one live line and 0.0 on the other. Yet the generator just seeing equal current of 23.0 on each line without going over rated current. What gets a small generator in trouble is 3500W load on one winding half and 1500W on the other winding half. The motor is still below rated load but the one half of the generator is and will keep throwing the breaker. After a few sessions the breaker will either being to trip too easy or too hard. Now it's nuisance trips or smoke. I would like to think that most people here on site won't live in blind hope. That thier need for power is greater than the laws of physics.

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Butch(OH)

12-29-2004 14:29:59




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to buickanddeere, 12-29-2004 12:47:40  
No I didn"t choose this wattage so I could plug it in. I choose it based upon price (clicker on this link and look at the jump in price from 12,000 to 15) and what will make us reasonably comfortable considering that the more we "need" to run, the fuel per hour the tractor will burn. The 12000 unit is about $1200 shipped to my door. I have upto 80HP availible to run the generator. Figured that I can run the 12,000 maybe with the B Allis and it would be more fuel efficient at part load than a WD or WD-45 although at full draw it would be a stout load as it dynos at 22. I do not plan on jury rigging the set up, double throw, pro wiring etc. I have a shed near the hose I where I can keep both under roof and wire the generator in with perminant type wiring. The unprepared people were in for a mess no matter what, some still without power, this is day #6. Temps went down to minus 10 at night for a couple days after power went off. Those with no back up have magor plumbing meses, many bought whatever genorators were left to buy. Father in law smoked his furnace, sump pump and freezer, many others in same shape. A person would think that when the light buls dimmed and the genorater motor bogged and the breakers kept tripping they would,,,,, , Dad used to call it common sence, oh well.

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Butch(OH)

12-29-2004 14:46:03




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Butch(OH), 12-29-2004 14:29:59  
Guess I should have aded the furnace is a high ef gas unit, not total electric



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Vern-MI

12-29-2004 12:37:38




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Butch(OH), 12-29-2004 07:57:57  
Try this Honda wattage calculator:



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A Pauled

12-29-2004 12:35:08




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Butch(OH), 12-29-2004 07:57:57  
I believe as a rule of thumb... starting current on most motors is approximately 3 times the running current.

AP



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LeJo

12-29-2004 11:42:38




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Butch(OH), 12-29-2004 07:57:57  
No one mentioned it so I will. This goes to anyone putting in a home generator. BE SURE you use the proper disconnect. Should be installed by a certified electrician. If you don't and you kill someone they may use the generator to hook up to a chair and have YOU sit in it?????.



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ScottP

12-29-2004 09:45:25




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Butch(OH), 12-29-2004 07:57:57  
Butch
Get yourself an amp-clamp and check and see how many amps you are using now with everything on. Then check and see what you are using with just the stuff you HAVE to have on,the well, wife's tv, etc. I think you will be amazed at the results. I wouldn't trust the nameplate ratings as their for ideal loads and conditions. Then get a genset at least 10% bigger than needed, for extra capacity.
Scott

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Mike M

12-29-2004 09:26:21




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Butch(OH), 12-29-2004 07:57:57  
If you go with a 540 pto driven unit see if you can find one that only needs to gear up to 1800 rpm for the generator and not clear up to 3600 rpm. We have a 3600 rpm unit with a 540 rpm drive and it sure is noisy !!!! If you have an electric furnace you are going to need a huge generator or an alternate source of heat like wood or gas .



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LumbrJakMan

12-29-2004 11:34:02




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Mike M, 12-29-2004 09:26:21  
Mike , I have a very nice 13HP Honda 8000 watt generator . I back feed the whole panel ( I am a Union Electrician so Its all done safely ). And I run the whole home . 2600 Sq Ft Custom Contemporary. My well works fine . My Furnace with hot air blower works fine . My oil fired Hot Water Heater works fine . and all the lights and outlets I need. Some people just go a bit further than they need to on Generators. I simply roll the Cart with the Generator on it to the Garage door . keep it aimed out for the exhaust , and its fine as long as I keep it fueled .

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Jet9N

12-29-2004 09:01:14




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Butch(OH), 12-29-2004 07:57:57  
That should run your household fine. Just don't plan on using the electric stove or clothes dryer. If power has been off for a while when you
start the gen. it wouldn't hurt to turn off a few appliances at first to get them on a staggered
schedule instead of everything kicking in at once.

Jet



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Fawteen

12-29-2004 08:00:23




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Butch(OH), 12-29-2004 07:57:57  
50 amps times 220 volts is 11,000 watts. Unless your refrigerator, freezer and pump all start simultaneously, I can't imagine it being a problem.



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Rod in Smiths Falls, ON,

12-29-2004 16:27:49




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Fawteen, 12-29-2004 08:00:23  
A household refrigerator that hasn't been running is easy to start, but draws a great deal of current to start immediately after it has been shut off. Les, my electrican buddy, warned me always to let the fridge lose its pressure -- for ten to fifteen minutes -- before restarting it. He also showed me the running current draw for an average-sized fridge: 4 amps.



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pg

12-30-2004 01:33:39




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 Re: household stand by generator question in reply to Rod in Smiths Falls, ON, , 12-29-2004 16:27:49  
sounds like your power goes out alot. you might want to consider a permanent generator. they make them to run on natural or propane gas. depending on what you have. they sit outside of your house and are directly connected to your house breaker panel. have installed a few. they seem to work well. but you have to want one, they are expesive. when your power goes out, they kick on, runs everything. pg

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