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wire break and my multimeter

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stevieandsam

12-26-2004 08:58:58




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need some help..... ..... I have a garage about 250 feet from the house. there is a line running from a 30 amp dual pole breaker in the basement running from the house to the garage burried underground. the underground wire is a 4 wire cable used spicificly for burying. i've had no issues for the last 10 ears, but recently, the breaker began to trip in the basement. i'd reset it but it began to trip more often. have shut off the breakers in the garage itself but the main in the garage keeps tripping, now so often i can't run anything in the garage. I replaced the breaker in the basement but the problem didn't get any better. i have a digital multimeter. when the line is powered up i can test to see if the proper voltage is comming through the line. my question is how do i use the multimeter to see if there is an undergroungd break in the line? the meter tests for ohms and has a beep function for a continuity check, but i'm not exactly sure how to use it or what exactly i'm looking for. any guidance would be appreciated.

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old art

12-27-2004 19:46:30




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 Re: wire break and my multimeter in reply to stevieandsam, 12-26-2004 08:58:58  
you have a ground or a short a clue that may help did you dig or drive any posts,rods,run any heavy equipment in the aera where the wire is buried even planting a ploant or tree. also look where the wire enters or leaves a building a good memory helps a lot to folow the wire path look over closly art



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Weirsdale George

12-27-2004 17:25:14




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 Re: wire break and my multimeter in reply to stevieandsam, 12-26-2004 08:58:58  
With the existing wire being ten years old and there are no loose connections at either end, I'd bit the bullet and hire someone with a cable plow and run a new cable.



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upred

12-27-2004 10:23:00




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 Re: wire break and my multimeter in reply to stevieandsam, 12-26-2004 08:58:58  
contact your electric utility they have equipment to find your trouble, they can isolate the bad spot, if it is a ground they can use an earth fault crutch, if it is an open they can shoot voltage down the line with their thumper.



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Jack Mc

12-26-2004 19:13:17




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 Re: wire break and my multimeter in reply to stevieandsam, 12-26-2004 08:58:58  
Is their anyway you can get the 1-800-Blue Stake people out? The gas co. blue stake guy did it for me. They can trace from the house out till they get a break in the signal and from the garage back also. Gives you a good pinpoint if it is an underground problem. Sure beats digging up the whole 250 feet. The only thing that bothers me about your situation is the fact the breaker has lag time tripping. Usually if you have an underground break it will trip as fast as you set it as it has a direct short. I would check all connections too (loose set screws etc.) Jack

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Bill WI

12-26-2004 11:07:56




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 Re: wire break and my multimeter in reply to stevieandsam, 12-26-2004 08:58:58  
No electrican, but I do my own wiring and I too wonder why 4 wires. Is 1 wire not being used? If you are tripping the breaker in the garage I would mistrust something in the box there. Loose terminals will cause a higher load and check with the meter with black grounded and red on each lug. Should red about 110-120 volts on the ac(~). A guess would be a loose terminal in the box. Let us know what you find.

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buickanddeere

12-26-2004 11:46:20




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 Re: wire break and my multimeter in reply to Bill WI , 12-26-2004 11:07:56  
I'll have to respectfully disagree with the trouble shooting method stated. The tripping breaker in the basement service supplying the garage. I have a feeling this installation was dome by a Mr. Fixit wasn't inspected by the utility. A loose terminal will trip breakers on motor loads as the breaker will keep seeing current spikes. There will be flickering lights, burning smells or something else mentioned as well. One or both of the live lines is likely shorting with moisture to earth, ground wire, neutral or to the other live line.

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buickanddeere

12-26-2004 09:32:51




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 Re: wire break and my multimeter in reply to stevieandsam, 12-26-2004 08:58:58  
Don't keep retrying a breaker when there is a problem. The cable out to the garage may get totaly ruined. The breaker ruined or a face full of sparks blast out of the breaker at you. I wonder why a 4 wire cable was ran to the garage for a 120/240 single phase service? Instead of running a ground wire out from the system service in the basement. The neutral to ground bonding screw has to be removed from the garage panel. Then depending on local code a ground rod(s) or grounding plate is used at at the garage and connected to the ground lug with 3^ copper wire. Tying neutral and ground together except at the 1st panel at the hydro service makes trouble. Isolate the four wires at the house and garage ends. Put the meter on ohms and measure from the house sevice ground lug to each wire to the garage. Try various scales until something appears with the needle indicating about half way across the meter face. Also test wire to wire in the cable out to the garage. You might get lucky until spring and be able to use one live line to the garage. As previously stated, run service wires in conduit incase things like this happen. I ran the TWU out to my shed inside 4" drainage tile. Can yank it out should something ever go wrong.

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DH in Carolina

12-26-2004 15:06:06




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 Re: wire break and my multimeter in reply to buickanddeere, 12-26-2004 09:32:51  
You need to read Article 250.32 B (1)(2) of the 2002 national electrical code. You may use four conductors- 2 ungrounded, 1 neutral, and 1 equipment grounding conductor. The neutral and equipment ground may be connected together at the service panel but must be separated at the second panel. No ground electrode is required with this hookup. If you only use three wires 2 ungrounded conductors and 1 neutral you must use a grounding electrode at the second building. You must separate the grounding electrode and neutral in the second panel. Have a good day Danny Hearl

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Bob

12-26-2004 15:09:17




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 Re: wire break and my multimeter in reply to DH in Carolina, 12-26-2004 15:06:06  
I suspect things are done a bit differently in THE GREAT WHITE NORTH, where B&D is from.



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Stickler

12-26-2004 15:37:29




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 Re: wire break and my multimeter in reply to Bob, 12-26-2004 15:09:17  
"I suspect things are done a bit differently in THE GREAT WHITE NORTH, where B&D is from."

They are. We've had the requirement for both a neutral and a ground conductor for longer than I can remember. Separate ground electrodes are not normally allowed under CEC rules.



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Bob

12-26-2004 09:24:31




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 Re: wire break and my multimeter in reply to stevieandsam, 12-26-2004 08:58:58  
It's pretty unlikely you'll be able to find the exact location of the problem with a just a basic meter.

Your 4 - wire cable will have a bare (ground), a white (neutral) and 2 "HOT" wires (red and black).

You could determine if both "HOT" wires are damaged by unhooking first one and then the other wire from the breaker and see if it still trips with only one or the other wire hooked up. (Be safe, make sure power is "OFF" before messing with wires!)

Lacking an underground wire fault tester, you can try hooking up an electrically noisy device (such as a drill or other tool with a "brush-type" motor) to first one and then the other "HOT" wire at the breaker (other wire to "neutral") and then take a cheap AM portable radio, set for maximum "noise", between stations, and follow along the underground wire. If you are lucky, and the wire is not buried too deep, you MAY be able to notice a change in the electrical noise picked up by the radio as you pass it by the shorted area.

That being said, in my experience, 90% of the time there is trouble with an underground wire, it is at either end, where it enters or leaves the ground. It may be damaged or chafed where it bends upwards into the conduit, or it may be damaged by the ground settling near the foundation at either end. Be SURE the wire is powered down, and dig up a couple of feet at both ends, and look for any damage.

Otherwise, you'll probably have to get someone with a tester that can "ring" the wire and determine how many feet from the end the fault is.

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ihmike(n.e.tx)

12-26-2004 09:13:50




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 Re: wire break and my multimeter in reply to stevieandsam, 12-26-2004 08:58:58  
Sounds like the wire is damaged. Put the new one in a pvc conduit. Gophers around here like to chew on wires.



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