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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Shielding gas question for mig welder

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Butch(OH)

12-21-2004 19:50:13




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I have one of the 110 volt mig welders that I use for my out of the shop field repair work. It has one of those small bottles that is handy to lug around for what I use it for. Problem is that with 75-25 mix the bottles dont last very long at all. I thought about straight Co2 and that it should last quite a bit longer with the liquid and all but the dealer tells me it will last exactly the same as the mix. I find that hard to belive, anybody know for sure because I have to buy another bottle to try it @$75. I could go with inner shield wire I guess IF I could ever find any I liked. The welder is only used for field repairs of non critical parts, most of which end up in the shop for proper repair when the equipment is idle. Any thoughts or ideas welcome.

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mike j

12-24-2004 12:07:16




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 Re: Shielding gas question for mig welder in reply to Butch(OH), 12-21-2004 19:50:13  
I run a hobart handler 120, and use straight c02 for economy but if i need a real good hot weld i use the mix as it does seem to make a big difference. here i buy co2 by the pound not the cu ft and a 40# bottle costs 22$ vs 48 for 125 cf in mix and the co2 lasts alot longer at the same rate PS i run about 20-25 cfh. mike



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BFO

12-22-2004 15:21:50




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 Re: Shielding gas question for mig welder in reply to Butch(OH), 12-21-2004 19:50:13  
I run Lincoln's Innershield NR-211-MP (AWS Classification E71T-11) in my siutcase welder for onsight work. It's a pretty decent all position, self-shielded wire.



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T_Bone

12-22-2004 12:00:38




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 Re: Shielding gas question for mig welder in reply to Butch(OH), 12-21-2004 19:50:13  
Hi Butch,

Your supplier is correct. Were measuring flow of a gas at volume rate per hour. 30cfh of Argon is the same "gas" flow rate as 30cfh of Co2.

If both cylinders, Ar & Co2, were 220cf in size, then they would both empty at a different rate over time.

As Rod pointed out Co2 is stored as a liquid thus would contain more gas volume as the liquid boils off in the same size cylinder comparred to Ar.

Unless the suppliers have changed there ways, Co2 is bought equal too a 220cf cylinder of "gas". That is why the Co2 cylinder is smaller as when the liquid Co2 boils off you would have 220cf of gas or the same as a 220cf cylinder of Ar.

Thus a 220cf cylinder of Ar would contain the same gas volume of a cylinder of Co2.

As to gas coverage needed while Mig welding, you would need to be in a draft free enviroment to take advantage of the shielding properties of Ar shielding vs Co2 shielding.

A weld with Ar shielding will take less gas than a weld with Co2 but only in a production machine weldment. This would because you can control a constant cup clearance to the base metal surface. Under this condition then less cfh of shielding gas can be used and depending on the base metal/electrode, use less Ar shielding gas.

Cost effective to use Ar? No, Co2 (if it can be used) is more cost effective as it costs less per/cf.

The last time I bought 40cf of Oxygen, it cost me the same to buy a 220cf Oxygen cylinder. I paid the higher price so I could easy carry the Oxy/Acet cylinders too the roof. I paid $66 for a 220cf Ar cylinder last year. Mixed gas always runs about 30% higher. Mix your own gas and save 30%!

Wanna save another 34%, learn to control your arc length in a draft free enviroment and use 20cfh shielding gas flow. Cut the flow rate down until you get prososity then add 5cfh.

Always buy the largest cylinder (330cf, Type of gas dependant) that you can as it's the cheapest overall cost.

I believe Lincoln makes .030 E70s innershield in 10/lb spools ? You might check that, I could be wrong.

T_Bone

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Pile Buck

12-22-2004 06:35:45




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 Re: Shielding gas question for mig welder in reply to Butch(OH), 12-21-2004 19:50:13  
Hi Butch, if your looking for a good flux core wire to try. Buy a small roll of Hobart�s 21-B. I�m not sure you can get it in a small enough dia. To run on a 110-volt machine, the smallest I�ve run is .045 I have taken lots of 1-inch bend test with this wire, and a few of them I just butchered. Never failed a test with this 21-B wire.



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Rod (NH)

12-22-2004 06:20:01




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 Re: Shielding gas question for mig welder in reply to Butch(OH), 12-21-2004 19:50:13  
Hi Butch,

Here's my take on your question:

One of the small high pressure gas cylinders is called an "R" size. If this size cyl is filled with 75/25 argon/CO2 compressed gas, it will contain about 20 cubic feet of the gas mixture. See here.

If a similar sized cyl is filled with liquified CO2, it will contain about 5 pounds of CO2. See here.

At a temperature of 70 deg F, the specific volume of CO2 gas is 8.7 cubic feet per pound. Therefore, at 70 deg F, the liquified CO2 cyl should provide about 43 cubic feet of CO2 gas at standard temp and press (70 deg/1 atm).

The regulator on my Lincoln MIG (gas shielded) is not adjustable and is preset by the manufacturer at 30 cubic feet per hour. This is likely a pretty standard flow rate for a MIG shielding gas.

If these numbers (and my thinking) are correct, a liquid CO2 cyl of a similar size will provide you with about twice the volume of shielding gas as the compressed gas cyl will. And would increase your usage time from about 40 min per cyl to about 80 min per cyl, on average at mild temperatures. This is only my own theory since I have never tried such a switch and have no direct experience with it.

I think you are correct and your supplier is wrong. My thought here however is that the supplier ought to know this stuff better than anyone else but I guess it won't be the first time that they don't :o).

PS - I always shut my gas cylinder valves after each use and do not depend on the welding unit automatic valve to provide a tight shutoff.

third party image Rod

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Bus Driver

12-22-2004 06:15:27




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 Re: Shielding gas question for mig welder in reply to Butch(OH), 12-21-2004 19:50:13  
For mild steel, the weld quality with argon-CO2 mix is much better than with straight CO2. I am sure that gas usage is the same either way.



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farmweld

12-22-2004 05:01:44




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 Re: Shielding gas question for mig welder in reply to Butch(OH), 12-21-2004 19:50:13  
"The welder is only used for field repairs of non critical parts, most of which end up in the shop for proper repair when the equipment is idle"

since this is so, i would just use flux cored wire, instead of shielding gas. the quality of the weld should be the same, and if the equipment will be fixed properly in a shop later, there is really no benifit of the sheilding gas. you dont even need to chip the slag off if you dont want to. happy welding
farmweld

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Slowpoke

12-21-2004 23:10:06




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 Re: Shielding gas question for mig welder in reply to Butch(OH), 12-21-2004 19:50:13  
I had the same problem as Paul due to a poor seal on the gas valve in the welder. Over night I'd loose half an 80 cu ft tank of gas. I got tired of cranking the tank valve open and closed 4-5 turns when ever I stopped welding for a short time, so I installed a small 1/4 turn ball valve between the gauges and the hose. Now I only open the tank valve when I start welding and close it when I'm done for the day. Otherwise I use the ball valve. It only take a second to flip the handle..... if I remember. Guess I'll have to get that seal replaced.

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Paul in WI

12-21-2004 20:26:34




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 Re: Shielding gas question for mig welder in reply to Butch(OH), 12-21-2004 19:50:13  
dO YOU SHUT OFF THE GAS AT THE TANK AS SOON AS YOU ARE DONE WELDING? When ever I foget to turn mine off the tank emptys real fast. I have been on guard to turn it off and have had a bottle last for over a year now. Just a thought.



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