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Making a gas powered compressor

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Zira

12-01-2000 14:32:36




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I am thinking of putting together an air compressor powered by a gasoline motor. I have the motor, and the air compressor itself,tank & miscellaneous small pieces from an old electric unit. My questions are:
Do I still use a check valve? An unloader valve? Do I need a clutch for the motor? What type? Or do I start it with the compressor hooked up to it? Do I need to manually unload the compressor?
How do I control the pressure in the tank - just let the blow-off valve open?
Some of the commercial units I have seen seem to have a connection between the tank & the motor. Do these slow/stop the motor when the pressure reaches the correct level?
What other things do I need to think about?

Thanks for your help/ideas.

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REDHUSKY91

12-04-2000 09:16:49




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 Re: Making a gas powered compressor in reply to Zira, 12-01-2000 14:32:36  
Granger has unloader valves and cable oper. idle switches, etc., you may find your new parts there. they sell new complete units, tanks, pumps and even electric motors for that old unit. give them a look-big slection and there catalog is on the web.



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Roger Prosper

12-01-2000 20:08:41




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 Re: Making a gas powered compressor in reply to Zira, 12-01-2000 14:32:36  
There are easy ways to do it, and there are hard ways to do it.

1. Hard.

Use a lot of cheap components and worn out motors and swear a lot when it never starts.

2. Easy

Buy one that is already built for far cheaper than you can make it.

But, here I go anyway.

First, starting.

You can go with a centrifugal or electric clutch.

Centrifugal is cheaper and easier and negates the need for a battery. Makes it a lot easier to pull start in the cold.

Electrical is easy to disengege in an emergency, or for any reason you want to have the motor running without the pump turning.

Pipe in a tee to the discharge line to the tank and put a valve with a small sintered metal muffler in it so you can blow the air to atmosphere while the motor warms up.

Yes, you will still need a check valve.

Ok, so you have the motor running and the pump is idle due to the clutch. Now you rev up the motor and the centrifugal clutch engages, or, you throw the little switch on the side of the pressure switch that the electric clutch is wired through. The whole lash up begins to pump. You of course are using synthetic oil in the compressor since they will experience a lot of wear running in the cold with thick crude oil based lubricants. So, you are coming up to pressure and now you want the pump to stop pumping. Ok, there are several things to consider:

How do you do this? (duh)
How do I bleed air from the pump so it can easily re-start when I need air again? (unloading)

The cheap and easy way to do it, and the only way to do it with a pump that does not have a centrifugal unloader or head unloaders, it to use a special bleed valve that simply dumps air through a muffler once pressure is reached. These can be fairly expensive, but are easy to plumb. There is a second port on the better ones where you can take air off to throttle down the motor (more on that later). Cheaper units simply let the engine rev up till its governor takes over. It works, but is not very elegant.

The better solution is to use a pump with some kind of unloading system. A centrifugal clutch on the motor, with a centrifugal unloader on the pump, with a control valve to throttle down the motor is the neatest way I have seen gas units unload. First, the pump comes up to pressure and the pilot valve lifts off its seat and sends an air signal to the control valve on the motor to throttle down. I have seen a nice stainless steel Bimba air cylinder mounted on a piece of angle iron bolted to the motor controlling an 11 hp Honda, it works well and is very sturdy. The motor slows down to idle. The centrifugal clutch slows enough to disengage. The pump stops, just like in an electric application. The centrifugal unloader blows down the pump. You now have a tankful of air, and idling motor, and a completely still pump. You can stand next to it and talk normally. When the tire truck guys saw that, their jaws dropped. When the pressure drops, the air signal to the motor disappears, the motor revs, the centrifugal clutch re-engages and you are back in business.

The most common way, and the best way if air demand is heavy, is to use a pump with head unloaders. It works basically the same way as the previous unit, but instead of stopping, the pump continues to turn without pumping air, as the intake valves are held open by the unloader claws. Usually, an air signal will slow the motor somewhat, as well as unload the pump, but not as much as it does with the centrifugally unloaded pump, since it still has to turn the pump over.

With an electric clutch, simply wire the clutch through a pressure switch, so that when you reach tank pressure, it trips, breaks the circuit to the clutch, and the pump stops pumping. You still have to unload it however, and slow down the motor. Or, you could let the motor wail and use its momentum to get the pump spinning again despite having pressure in the cylinders, but this is really the neanderthal way to do it and very hard on all the components, especially the compressor crank. If you have a centrifugal unloader on the pump, it can blow down the pump, or you can bleed air off from the check valve back, if the pressure switch has a needle type unloader valve that you can tube into the check valve. You can have a 12V normally open solenoid air valve plumbed into the tank wired into the pressure switch as well, so that when the circuit breaks, it opens and sends an air signal to a throttle control cylinder on the motor to slow it down. All things considered, the centrifugal clutch/unloader method is by far the simpler way to go.

Always have a safety valve in the tank. Always inspect the tank for cracks, since a gas motor will send a lot of vibration through the tank, much more than an electric drive unit will.

There are two ways I have seen for slowing the motor. The most common way is to have a small air cylinder mounted on the motor that pushes the throttle shut once it gets the air signal from the pilot valve.

The second is a throttle cable that has an air cylinder at the point where it mounts to the pilot valve. It pushes the cable in the sheath which is pinned to the throttle at the motor. This is a little easier to hook up, but you have to be careful not to kink the cable. Trimming it to fit can be a bit of a pain too.

Thats all I can remember right now. I am going out for a coffee. I hate winter.


BTW, if you blow yourself up, I am in Canada and cannot be sued. Unless, of course, you are also in Canada, in which case, I am in America. Or not..

Seriously, if you do not know EXACTLY what you are doing, leave it alone. I am building Fisher pneumatic control valve actuators right now. I snapped a 1" steel shaft off the other day with only 35 psi of air pressure.

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Zira

12-02-2000 04:41:23




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 Re: Re: Making a gas powered compressor in reply to Roger Prosper, 12-01-2000 20:08:41  
Roger -

Thanks for your usual excellent explanation. FWIW, I hate winter too. You might consider establishing an address in the Caribean Sea to avoid lawsuits, rather than Canada. Works for me.

A couple of follow-up questions:
You mentioned using a pump with a centrifugal unloader. My pump (pre-WWII Kellogg) does not have this. Can one plumb one in to the output side of the pump, or does it have to be built in to the pump?

Can you point me toward a source for the bleed valves that have a second port to control motor speed? If one goes this route, and uses a cylinder to slow the motor, how exactly does that work? I would think that when the pressure is reached, the air is routed to the cylinder, which closes the throttle. When the tank pressure drops, the valve closes, there is no pressure on the cylinder, and a spring pulls the throttle back open. Is that correct?

The units I have seen so far have all had electric controls, except one WWI-era unit that just ran & pumped all the time, & used a safety valve to keep the pressure from going too high. That one scared me.

On tanks, I had not thought about the vibration issue. Do you usually use different (stronger) tanks for this application?

My unit will only be used occasionally. I have an antique pump, an antique Briggs motor, and a cheapie Campbell-Hausfield unit with a cracked block & no electric motor. It seemed like a fun thing to do with the pieces. I also have a decent IR unit that I actually use.

Thanks again for your help.

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T_Bone

12-02-2000 14:41:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Making a gas powered compressor in reply to Zira, 12-02-2000 04:41:23  
Hi All, A normal pressure switch used in electical air compressor apps, can be used to shut the gas unit off, and unload the compressor.

Instead of breaking the electrical circuit, you would ground one end of the wire, when the switched opened at desired maxmium pressure it would gorund the spark of the gas engine thus killing the engine and unloading the pump pressure line. As soon as the pressure is unloaded the switch goes back to normally closed when the tank pressure drops to cut-in pressure(compressor start call) thus ungrounding the gas engine letting it be restarted either automaticly or manually.

Viberation will fatigue any metal and there's always a gamble using and old tank and just as there is buying a used rifle.

As far as trying to hide ones posting idenity on this or any website without elaborate steps, your wasting your time because the board automaticly copies your ISP number and posts it right behind your posting name. See those numbers at the end of who made the post(Example 165.247.138.86)? That is your internet address of where you where at the time you made the post and is really close to your house address and true idenity gained from your ISP. Just for everyones information!

T_Bone

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Roger Prosper

12-02-2000 14:32:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Making a gas powered compressor in reply to Zira, 12-02-2000 04:41:23  
As far as centrifugal unloaders go, I am afraid they are very specific to each pump. You might be able to find an unloader from another Kellogg that works, however. Compressor designs tend to change slowly and use a lot of common parts between models. Most reciprocating compressors were probably designed and perfected in the first half of the 20th century.

Yes, a return spring will pull the throttle open again when demand for air comes back on.

I seem to recall us using a big brass control valve from a company called Pneumatic Controls, I think. We ordered them from a company called Cameron Compressor out of Mississauga, Ontario, which probably does not help you a lot. You might go to a hardware shop that sells Emglo portable gas drive contractor units. They should have the control valve in stock for those compressors, and be of a design that sends a control signal to both the head unloaders and the motor. You might be able to make that work. What you are looking for is a valve that dumps the air from the compressor as it is turning, and sends a signal to the motor to throttle down.

We used ordinary tanks for our in shop gas drive units, and they worked well for years and years. Cameron uses a slightly heavier tank with more steel in it and gussets along the saddle's side for extra strength. They are quite heavily built. BTW, they use Champion pumps for their units.

I have seen a home brew unit that used a chainsaw motor. What a jewel that must have been to work with all day.

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Roger Prosper

12-02-2000 14:39:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Making a gas powered compressor in reply to Roger Prosper, 12-02-2000 14:32:20  
I have made a small mistake in my original post. I do believe that the pump with the centrifugal unloader, also had head unloaders. If you try to throttle down the motor with the compressor still pumping, it will probably stall. This might make your project unfeasible if you cannot get the proper head unloaders. Sorry.



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Greg D.

12-01-2000 19:09:50




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 Re: Making a gas powered compressor in reply to Zira, 12-01-2000 14:32:36  
The first thing you need to think about is SAFETY!!!!! Is the unit you will put together be reliable to NOT blow up in your face? You will need an unloader valve to allow the compressor to not build pressure once it as reached a pre-set P.S.I. level in the tank. You will then need a pressure valve to allow the engine R.P.M.`s to be controlled. Low idle when the tank pressure is reached and full high idle when the pressure drops in the tank. The most important valve you will need is the safety valve in the tank so in case something goes wong, it won`t all blow up. After all that, it might be easier and cheaper to find a good price on a used unit.

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jimmyzz

12-02-2000 23:28:03




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 Re: Re: Making a gas powered compressor in reply to Greg D., 12-01-2000 19:09:50  
Go to good compressoar shop and ask for atmospheric unloader. you don't need clutches or centrifugial unloaders with these. Also will need small pneumatic cyclinder to kick down engine. most atmosphereic unloaders have check valve built in, so you don't need that. DO PUT IN SAFETY RELIEF VALVE @ TANK INLET.the tricky part is getting engine govener to work right,good luck.they are all different.



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jimmyzz

12-02-2000 23:29:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Making a gas powered compressor in reply to jimmyzz, 12-02-2000 23:28:03  
o yeah the atmospheric unloader will have port to opperate engine kick down.



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