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Two compressors

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CNKS

12-14-2004 14:06:32




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I posted a while back about tying two compressors together to sandblast. I have read most of the stuff in the archives, and an electrician is going to change my wiring so both can run at once, but I still have questions. My old one (single stage) is rated at 17 cfm at 90 psi, the new one (2 stage) 24.5 cfm at 150 psi (don't know the cfm at 90, it will be slightly more) I'm going to use check valves in both lines to prevent the compressors from overcharging each others tanks. The simplest question is what are these valves called, and where do I buy them -- are they the same as hydraulic check valves? The more complicated question is how the compressors should be set up. I am going to need the full output of both, or about 41 psi combined--still not enough, but it's going to have to do. I have read on this board about the lead compressor, lag compressor, where the big one runs until it can't keep up and then the smaller one cuts in to make up the difference. Will I be getting 41 cfm with this setup or will it only maintain the big one's 24 cfm? 24 cfm is not enough. Or do I run both as they are set at the factory? I'm not concerned with electrical overload, as the electrician will either put in the proper breakers, or a delay switch so they don't both start at once. I realize that I am going to have to experiment with tip size and psi at the regulator so that hopefully both will cycle and be able to cool down somewhat. I think my new compressor can run continuously (100% duty cycle), not sure about the old one. If I have to I can blast for 10 minutes or so, then stop for 5 minutes, if need be. Thanks for your help.

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Big Jim

12-15-2004 23:37:22




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to CNKS, 12-14-2004 14:06:32  
If I had to parallel a single stage and a 2-stage, I would turn the pressure switch on the 2-stage unit down to match the maximum output of the single stage unit. Then you are not relying on an in-line check valve of some sort to protect the single stage tank and compressor from higher pressure. The tank might be OK (still pretty risky) but the compressor itself could be seriously damaged by too much back pressure.
A second option might be a pressure regulator in the output line of the 2 stage so it's delivered pressure to your distribution system is the same as the single stage.

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CNKS

12-16-2004 07:20:42




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to Big Jim, 12-15-2004 23:37:22  
The reason for my getting a 2 stage was increased output. While it my well be that under load, both compressors will ultimately run at the same pressure, won't know that until I begin to use them. The check valve prevents me from having to mess with the pressure switches. The only reason to adjust the pressure switches is to prevent overloading my circuit in case both compressors come on at the same time, which probably won't happen, as noted by Rod(NH) below.

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Dick L

12-15-2004 13:44:51




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to CNKS, 12-14-2004 14:06:32  
I have run as high as five air compressors into one main line. I had all five set at 100# unload. The big one was 100 hp second one was 75hp and the other three were 20 hp. Turned them on as demand called for them. No check valves. Had a gate valve on the outlet so they could have the pressure relieved to service them. If you set both a 90# you will not have a problem.



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George G

12-16-2004 16:23:49




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to Dick L, 12-15-2004 13:44:51  
I can tell ya, that most all compressers have check valves between the compresser and the receiver. If they did'nt, when one compresser unloaded, it would try to unload the whole system.All big compressers come from the factory with check valves hooked inline right after the oil seperator/tank. We run two 125hp, one 100hp, two 75hp and one 50hp compressers into one system. We did'nt add check valves, cause they are already there.

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Dick L

12-16-2004 18:58:29




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to George G, 12-16-2004 16:23:49  
Sure they all have check valves between the compressor and the tank. Both of his will also. I took him as meaning he wanted check valves out of the tank.



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CNKS

12-15-2004 17:41:43




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to Dick L, 12-15-2004 13:44:51  
You have industrial size compressors, if you check the plates on the tanks you will likely find them rated for more pressure than they ever see, thus no problem. I consider my compressors to be relatively large hobbiest or small commercial shop compressors. Thus I probably need to take more precautions than you do. It makes no sense to me to set a 145 to 175 psi 2-stage compressor at 90 pounds. if that were the case I simply would have bought another single stage. I need all the air volume I can get out of them. As it is it will take me 2 hours to blast what you can do in 10 minutes.

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Dick L

12-16-2004 09:06:41




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to CNKS, 12-15-2004 17:41:43  
Sorry but it makes a lot of sense to lower the pressure to 90 pounds. First of all no matter how many check valves you install if your 175 pound compressor does not fall below the 90 pounds of your 90 pound high end compressor it will never kick in. Second as you lower the larger compressors high end pressure the cfm output increases. I doubt that you want the sand flowing out the sand blast nozzle and 175 pounds of pressure so what would be the object of building the pressure to lower the cfm"s. I still have a scar on the side of my face when a fork truck broke off a fitting on an air hose. The end of the hose whipped like a black snake. Several employes were trapped and hunkered down. I jumped in and grabed the hose but my first grip was two feet from the end and before I could get it gripped closer to the end blood was running down and off my chin. That was at just 100 pounds system pressure. There is needs for higher pressures but most air uses just need voluum and when not needed it is only an adjustment to change from one pressure to another.

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CNKS

12-16-2004 17:57:31




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to Dick L, 12-16-2004 09:06:41  
The pressure in the tanks and the pressure I will use are two different things. I have no intention of trying to blast at 175 psi. I am adding a second compressor to get more volume. The regulator on the end of the line will be set at 90 psi, maybe more, I won't know what works until I try. My 2-stage is not big enough to go it alone, I am sure the single stage will kick in. If it doesn't then I need a bigger nozzle on my sandblaster. I have SMALL compressors, not the monsters some of you guys are talking about.

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Dick L

12-16-2004 19:05:12




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to CNKS, 12-16-2004 17:57:31  
I guess my first question should have been what does your sand blasting setup consist of? What size of air hose are you using to feed the sandblast gun?



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ScottT

12-15-2004 10:49:13




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to CNKS, 12-14-2004 14:06:32  
Why can't the regulated output of each compressor be individually connected to your header? Pick a system pressure you need to maintain (90 psi?), set both regulators for 90 psi output, each unit will run independently. Turn on one, or the other, or both to satisfy your air needs. There should be no issues with tank working pressures and the single stage unit will come online earlier to allow the two stage unit to maintain more storage.

This would also allow different installation locations to use existing electrical service, more efficiently use space, or reduce long dead ended pipe runs....

Scott

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CNKS

12-16-2004 07:36:59




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to ScottT, 12-15-2004 10:49:13  
My electrician will modify my circuits to handle the load. I have a 70 foot pipe run because it allows the air to cool and the water gets dumped into my filter. Both compressors will feed the same sandblaster, so I don't understand how the plumbing affects it since the air from both compressors ultimately ends up in the same place, causing one or both to start and stop. I could plumb each compressor into it's own line and tee them into the sandblaster. That might help with pressure drop thru the lines. As it is I am teeing them both into a 3/4 inch line at the compressors -- may work ok, may not. If I find out the line size is the problem I can plumb one compressor to a line that goes the opposite direction but is usually not in use. Had I know I was going to do this, I would probably have used 1" line instead of 3/4", although I have read that 3/4 is adequate. Guess I'll find out.

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Ramrod

12-15-2004 08:36:50




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to CNKS, 12-14-2004 14:06:32  
Before I got my big compressor, I sand blasted with two smaller ones simply hooked up with a QC tee adapter. That worked fine for a long time. I think I would advise that and save the check valve bucks for the big compressor.

Ramrod



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CNKS

12-15-2004 09:39:24




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to Ramrod, 12-15-2004 08:36:50  
I have already plugged in the check valve. Cost $42.00. The 2-stage delivers at least 175 psi, the tank on the single stage is only rated at 150 psi. The pressure should be released thru the smaller ones relief valve, just don't want to take the chance. True HP's are 7.5 (25 cfm) and about 5 (17 cfm).



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Roger P.

12-16-2004 09:15:50




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to CNKS, 12-15-2004 09:39:24  
If you have installed the check valve on the output of the single stage, you have already solved all your problems. If the single stage cut in pressure is below the two stage cut in pressure, and the single stage cut out pressure is below the two stage cutout pressure, the check valve will do the rest. The setup should operate like this:

Two Stage Pressure Range:
Cut Out.... ----- ----- -- Cut in
Cut Out..... ..... ...X----- ---- Cut In
Single Stage Pressure Range:

Where ... is compressor shut off
and ---- is compressor running.

The area where the two stage is running and the single stage is shut off ( X )is where the check valve comes into play, preventing backfilling of the lower rated air tank. As Rod said, I would recommend a spring loaded poppet style check valve with a Teflon or Nylon poppet.

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BLT

12-15-2004 06:21:59




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to CNKS, 12-14-2004 14:06:32  
Just put a tee in the outlet of the larger compressor and tie a hose off of the second one into it. You don't need check valves anywhere. I have been doing this for over 1 year with a 5 hp and a 3 hp and it works great!



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CNKS

12-15-2004 17:45:54




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to BLT, 12-15-2004 06:21:59  
Again, if you have two single stage or two 2-stage, you are ok. The hp size is meaningless in that situation. If your 5 hp is 2-stage and your 3 hp single stage, when those tanks get rusty (and they will), good luck!!



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CNKS

12-15-2004 09:42:18




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to BLT, 12-15-2004 06:21:59  
That's ok if they are both rated at the same pressure, mine aren't.



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BLT

12-15-2004 14:46:43




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to CNKS, 12-15-2004 09:42:18  
They do not have to rated @ same pressure, (mine aren't), it's just that one will come on or cut off sooner than the other, no harm done!



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Rod (NH)

12-14-2004 16:35:00




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to CNKS, 12-14-2004 14:06:32  
CN,

They are simply called "check valves" and most any will do the job (there are many actual different styles). For that particular service however, I personally would prefer a soft-seated, spring loaded check valve such as shown here. The one shown is for copper connections but you can get them threaded also if you are planning a threaded piping installation. These units would be quite similar to the tank check valve that is usually installed between your compressor and storage tank to permit the compressor head to be unloaded via the bleedoff in the pressure switch. Any plumbing supply outlet should be able to fix you up. You likely could also find a serviceable unit at Home Depot or some such place (although probably not the spring loaded, soft-seated variety). Just make sure that the safe working pressure is about 200 psig (a common value) or more. Also make sure that the relief valve on the lowest rated tank (probably the single stage one) is installed and fully functional.

You'll have the sum of the two compressor capacities any time that both of them are running. The trickiest part may be to get the pressure switch settings to yield a decent lead/lag arrangement. Typically, the switch for the two stage would be a higher setting than the one for the single stage. You probably will not have much adjustment capability in the switches as a 30 psig differential between cut-in and cut-out is pretty standard. It can be tinkered with but not by a great amount. What this all means is that you will have your two stage capacity available until the tank pressure for the two stage unit drops to equal the cut-in pressure of the single stage compressor. From that point on, both compressors will run and provide a usable capacity equal to their sum (at the pressure at the time). If that sum is not enough to keep up with your usage, then the tank pressures (both tanks) will continue to drop and both compressors will continue to run. If your consumption is less than the sum, the tank pressure in both tanks will slowly rise until the single stage unit shuts off. The lead (two stage) compressor will see the most continuous service in such an arrangement as it will never shut off as long as your consumption is greater than it's individual capacity.

Rod

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CNKS

12-14-2004 18:00:46




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to Rod (NH), 12-14-2004 16:35:00  
I think I'll install screw-in valves in the outlet of each tank, and connect the tanks together with a hose (vibration damper), with a tee in the middle to the output pipe. The single stage is on at 100 and off at about 130 psi. Instructions with the new 2-stage don't give that spec, but I assume it is on at 145 and off at 175--need to call the company tomorrow and see what they say. Let's see if I understand this. I start both compressors, the single stage reaches 130 psi and shuts off, the 2-stage reaches 175 psi and shuts off. I then start blasting, and the 2 stage kicks in at 145 psi. The pressure continues to drop to 100 psi, then the single stage kicks in. If I can get satisfactory performance from my pressure pot sandblaster by using the right tip, hopefully the pressure will rise and the single stage will shut off. Assuming my psi numbers are correct, do I need to mess with anything? I can see I would if I had two identical compressors, but if I have a low pressure single stage and a higher pressure 2 stage, why do I need to do any adjustments?

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Rod (NH)

12-14-2004 20:21:01




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to CNKS, 12-14-2004 18:00:46  
Yup, with those numbers (or something close) it should work fine. You shouldn't have to mess with any adjustments. I use a 1/8" dia nozzle on my pot blaster and my 17 cfm will just barely keep up with it. That's with about a 100 psig set back at the regulator. I haven't checked what the actual pressure is at the pot during blasting. It would be significantly less since I usually run with about 25 feet of 3/8" supply hose and a couple of quick couplers for the pot. You certainly should be able to go bigger in nozzle size. How much bigger will be determined by some trial and error. My guess is 3/16" dia would be a fit. If you find 3/16" is a touch too big, just cut back on your regulator pressure a bit. That will lower the nozzle pressure and the cfm requirement.

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CNKS

12-15-2004 06:02:08




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to Rod (NH), 12-14-2004 20:21:01  
Thanks -- The largest tip size that comes with the sandblaster I ordered is 3.6 mm, or about .14 inch, if it can handle a larger one I'll do that after I use it a while. Not going to blast for hours on end, but it seems that this will be better than what I'm doing now. Don't know what my pressure drop is. Mine feeds about 70 feet of 3/4 inch pipe, with a 3/8 hose about the same length as yours attached to that. If I have problems I can reroute the pipe to about half that length, although if I remember right, 3/4 doesn't affect pressure a lot.

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Rod (NH)

12-15-2004 09:46:49




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to CNKS, 12-15-2004 06:02:08  
CN,

I disagree with BLT and Ramrod's blanket statements about check valves. I'll tell you why. Your single stage compressor unit runs between 100 and 130 psig. It will likely have a storage tank rated at 150 psig MAWP (maximum allowable working pressure) or thereabouts. There should be an ASME code plate tack welded to the tank specifying this MAWP. The relief valve for that tank cannot be set to exceed 150 psig per code - it will be higher than 130 but simply cannot be higher than 150, given the tank MAWP at 150.

Your two stage unit operates between 145 and 175 psig (very typical of two stage units). The storage tank for this unit is very likely rated at 200 psig MAWP. The code plate will verify this. The relief valve on this tank cannot be set higher than 200 psig per code - it will higher than 175 but simply cannot be higher than 200.

It is clear that if you do not have a check valve at the outlet of the single stage tank under these conditions, that one of two things will happen since both tanks will now always be at the same pressure:

1. If the relief valve is functional on the single stage tank, it will be constantly blowing (it's set at 150 psig maximum remember) any time your two stage unit exceeds this pressure. It routinely will since the two stage shut-off pressure is 175.

2. If the relief valve is NOT functional on the single stage tank, the tank will be over-pressurized beyond its' rating whenever your two stage unit gets beyond 150 psig.

I recommend you verify the code plates on each storage tank for the respective MAWP. If they are identical and both relief valves are also set at some pressure higher than 175, then you can dispense with any check valves. I really doubt that this is the case in your instance. If the plates are as I suspect and as noted above, you may forget the check valve on the two stage unit but not on the single stage one.

Be safe. And be critical of any blanket statements regarding safety without knowing all the nasty details.

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CNKS

12-15-2004 17:35:08




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to Rod (NH), 12-15-2004 09:46:49  
Your figures for both tanks are 100% correct, and the check valve is now installed on the smaller tank. Another thing, if the relief valve does work (it moves freely) on the small tank, it will as you say be continually popping off, when it does this it likely won't stop when 130 psi is reached, and it will lose further pressure. Although it seems unlikely that a 3 year old tank will explode at only 25 psi over the rated pressure, I'm not going to take the chance. Thanks very much for your help.

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Rod (NH)

12-16-2004 13:50:42




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to CNKS, 12-15-2004 17:35:08  
The relief valve should be a spring loaded "pop safety" valve that reseats automatically after some reduction in the tank pressure from the valve set point - technically referred to as "blowdown". Big safety valves typically have a blowdown of 5% or less. I have never seen typical blowdown figures for the little ones commonly provided for the size tanks we are talking about here (say 80 gal or less). I would guess that they would reseat automatically at some tank pressure 90% or greater than the valve set pressure (no more than 10% blowdown). Say if your single stage tank (150 MAWP) is protected by a valve set at 150 psig, then I would expect the valve to automatically reseat (shut) when the tank pressure drops to no less than about 135 psi. It shouldn't blow at all though with the check valve installed in the tank outlet - that's the reason for the check valve. Safety valves are always considered a last resort in safety of a pressure vessel. Other means should be provided (in this case, the check valve) to prevent intentional overpressure.

Could you be safe and overpressurize the tank by 20%? Probably, but no responsible person would recommend doing it intentionally. There is a MAWP stamped on the tank nameplate for a reason. Not to be exceeded. Exceeding that pressure intentionally will encrouch on the safety margin inherent in rating such equipment. In a commercial setting in most states it also would likely be illegal to do so. If your compressors were in a commercial setting, your state likely requires annual inspection and written certification by a qualified state agent or insurance company representative for their safe operation. An installation that permitted such an overpressure would be condemned and would never get an authority to operate. I do not recommend a deliberate overpressure of any amount. It's sort of like the isocyanate issue and painting - how much is too much? Can I do just one tractor with only a charcoal mask? Huh, huh, huh? Violate written safety directions at your own risk :o).

I do recommend that once in a while (say annually) you intentionally trip the safety valve with your finger using the little ring - that's what it's for. Do this when the tank is at a high pressure, say just after compressor shutoff. It is a simple check to verify that the valve is not stuck shut for some reason. Just watch your eyes for flying dust when you do that. You might also want to use some hearing protection also - it'll be loud.

I doubt you will have a problem with the 3/4" IPS piping (probably standard sched 40). At 50 scfm and 125 psig line pressure the drop is less than 2 psi per 100 ft, not including fittings. If you haven't already done so, I would suggest installing your main regulator at the far end of your "permanent" piping, as far from your compressor as possible. Ideally it should be located right at the actual end use point but that usually is not practical. Most are on the wall where your hose connects up. This is for two reasons:

1. You are correctly using your steel piping as a "cooling medium" to promote condensation of moisture. The piping will be at tank pressure and not your reduced usage pressure. At the higher pressure, the dewpoint of the air is greater than at a lower pressure so condensation is improved (the temperature doesn't have to drop as much to effect some moisture dropout at the higher pressure) plus your water separator will be downstream where the liquid can be collected and removed prior to entering your service hose.

2. Any filters that you may have should be located upstream of your regulator. The higher pressure in that location will result in a lower pressure drop across the unit (for the same flow rate) than if it were located downstream of your regulator. Decreased pressure drop is always a good goal to maximize system performance. You may have something like the a combination separator, filter and regulator such as that marketed by Sharp. That's fine but the best location for it is at the end of your piping run just prior to your hose connection. I suspect you have seen the suggested piping layout at the Sharp website. It's a pretty good one, although I would prefer to come off the top of the header with the drop(s) rather than the bottom as shown.

Didn't mean for this to be so long. Just got carried away, I guess.

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CNKS

12-16-2004 17:46:50




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 Re: Two compressors in reply to Rod (NH), 12-16-2004 13:50:42  
I made the comment about the pop-off valve because I have a year old air tank I bought to air up tires (my 20 year old 1 hp compressor died a slow death, and my shop building and compressors are a couple hundred feet away from my garage). Last time I filled it, it hit about 125 lbs (the maximum), the popoff valve popped, and I lost about 30 lbs of air. Hopefully the ones on my compressors are better. I have seen that diagram. I do have a combination water trap and regulator, but it is at the bottom of my last drop, the one I use for painting, and the one that will be used for the sandblaster. Never thought about separating the regulator and the filter. I can do that if I have problems. This has worked fine for painting, but the compressor does not run much. If I have problems with water in the sand, I can install a second one about 20 feet upstream, on another drop which will be maybe 50 feet or so from the compressor. I was thinking I might need another one anyway. Will wait and see.

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