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Have a generator question for you electricians....

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Brian in NY

12-03-2004 11:54:09




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Well we have been have power outages in SW NY off and on lately, and historically we have a long term power outage every few years or so...So the last time it went out I ran out and bought the generator I have had my eye on. Its a household duty style...5500 watts running, 8500 watts surge. It has a 30 amp twistlock outlet on it. My house has a generator box built in...The prior owner utilized a PTO generator and trust me it is set up right and was installed professionally.

What I want to know is...and this may be a dumb question....can I take off the three prong (220 style) plug from the generator box, install a 4 prong twist lock and plug my generator box into this generator? I know I don't want to overload the 30 amp outlet....so I would turn off all non-essentials breakers and use only what absolutely need (well pump, furnace blower, fridge maybe the TV sparingly and some lights).

I don't want to run into any problems or be at risk for a fire, so wanted your expert opinions, thanks.

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CJ-maybe

12-06-2004 11:16:53




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to Brian in NY, 12-03-2004 11:54:09  
Did I miss something? If he has a "pto gen set-up,set up right,pro installed,& aplug in a gen box",sounds like a transfer switch.Like it should be.If so,hook to it.



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jim

12-05-2004 20:46:48




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to Brian in NY, 12-03-2004 11:54:09  
Instead of changing out your plug, just make an adapter cord a few feet long. Then you can use 3 prong cords that you may already own or can borrow, and are more than heavy enough. Connect the 120, 120, and NEUTRAL wires, forget the ground. DO NOT use 120, 120, ground!!! By mistakingly using the ground instead of a neutral you may not have a 120 V circut, the voltage will float depending on the load on each leg. You can ground the generator if you wish by sitcking a piece of copper wire in the ground and attaching it to the generator frame.

Be careful on what you run. Start your largest load first. Do not overload, you may end up buying a new frige or other applience due to running with low voltage. TV doesn't take much :-) You may want to unplug your freezers/frige so they dont't kick on while your well/washing machine is running. You get the idea.

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toolman

12-05-2004 13:59:05




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to Brian in NY, 12-03-2004 11:54:09  
you know i have wired up a few barns and out buildings shops etc. but i am not an electrican, for the safetly of your family and piece of mind i would go talk to one ,have him do it for you, in the overall cost of things it won,t be much and probably money well spent.they guys have gone to school to learn their trade for a reason, they often give free advice so i in turn employ them when i need a professional job done.

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Raleigh

12-04-2004 06:13:22




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to Brian in NY, 12-03-2004 11:54:09  
I know of one brand of generators that has to have the neutral connected with the 4 wire system. It was a Coleman 5,500 watt. I tried connecting it without the neutral and just used the ground. I only had one breaker on for the test. When I turned that breaker on it blew the one light bulb I had on. It even broke the glass bulb.

So I used my meter to see why this happened. What I found was all the voltage was on one wire of the 230 feed.(230 volts on one wire and none on the other wire of the 230 line) And that wire with all the voltage happened to be the one feeding the 120 volt light bulb. I then connected the neutral and it evened out the voltage to both wires of the 230.

On older generators I had droped the neutral and everything worked fine but I know of at least one brand that the neutral has to be connected. If it says 4 wires use 4 wires and a 4 wire plug.

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0ld art

12-05-2004 19:13:00




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to Raleigh, 12-04-2004 06:13:22  
install a breaker at the generator for the limit of the recomened out put this will keep you from overloading the generator . 20amps at 240 volts = 4800 watts . this should help you. art



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DickTN

12-03-2004 19:28:43




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to Brian in NY, 12-03-2004 11:54:09  
Let me take a shot at this. The NEC (National Electrical Code) now requires separate neutral and ground wires. In the newer power panels, there are two separate terminal bars, one for neutral wires (white) and one for ground wires (green or bare). So, yes, you can remove the old-style three-prong unit and replace it with the four-prong type. Just add a green wire from your genbox to the proper bar in your breaker panel. Make sure to match the wiring from your generator to the gen box. And make VERY sure that, when running the generator, you have No possibility of back feeding the incoming utility line. Generally speaking, a way to do this is to use a 220 breaker in your main panel and feed it from your generator. Turn off your main breaker when running the generator. If you do not have a main breaker (split-bus panel), you are advised not to tie the generator into your panel at all. HTH DickTN

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buickanddeere

12-04-2004 02:57:55




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to DickTN, 12-03-2004 19:28:43  
Can not be legal or safe unless the generator and power from the Utility are always isolated from each other. Switching the main breaker off and back feeding into a welder, stove or clothes dryer receptacle is not safe or legal. Plus the welding receptacle back feed causes elevated ground voltages. A double throw switch after your service metering and before any or all your distribution panel(s). Or one of those distribution panel with isolation built into them with a transfer switch. Some tie two groups of breakers on each side of the panel with a tie rod. The little "emergency" power panel that so many people rush to install can be used. However I see it as alot of time, work and money just to be able to use an undersized generator. Why not install a cheaper transfer switch system right at the hydro service meter. And use the money saved to purchase a larger generator? If I had a dollar for every undersized generator purchased by people who now wish they had spent a few more bucks for the proper unit.

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DickTN

12-04-2004 05:01:50




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to buickanddeere, 12-04-2004 02:57:55  
Well, it is intuitively obvious that, in matters of electrical systems, you are the absolute authority. I apologize profusely for even attempting to assist the original poster. In future, I will refrain from offering any comment on items of this nature and defer always to your no doubt superior knowledge and extensive experience in the electrical field. You are, without doubt, correct in your assessment of the problem at hand and have pinpointed with extreme accuracy the proper solution.

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buickanddeere

12-04-2004 11:23:38




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to DickTN, 12-04-2004 05:01:50  
Your point is? Anyone shutting off the main and back feeding into a 'regular receptacle" is going to get into trouble sooner or later.



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Reido in MO

12-05-2004 09:45:11




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to buickanddeere, 12-04-2004 11:23:38  
Why do you say this? IF you throw the main breaker, there is no chance of backfeed out the mainline. Or do you just assume people are too stupid and forget? BTW, Have a nice day Ron.



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buickanddeere

12-05-2004 12:50:17




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to Reido in MO, 12-05-2004 09:45:11  
After every blackout there is a long line of what you call stupid people with burned out generators from back feeding into the grid. Either the backfeed of unsycronized power from the grid. Or overloading the generator from trying to supply the neighbours via a backfeed smoked the machine. Happens more often than you think and people who do it don't spread the news they messed up. Lets not forget about all those livestock getting tinkle voltage shocks due to the energized ground if backfeeding through a welding receptacle. Not everyone understands electricity or can get the switching sequence correctly in mind while under stress. Lets not forget all the linesman who have been hurt or killed when lines that should have been dead were live, or became alive due to a backfeed from a tinkerers generator. Yes there are people who are not as smart as you out there hooking up generators. So quit endangering yourself, your family, your equipment and the poor smuck working on high voltage distrubutiuon lines in a storm. Are cheap, lazy or just think you are so smart?

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T_Bone

12-05-2004 23:27:30




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to buickanddeere, 12-05-2004 12:50:17  
Hi Reido,

Not only is Buickanddeere correct, here in Arizona it's $10000 in fines plus 1yr in jail if you wire in a generator without telling the local power company.

Fry a lineman then it's many moons in jail weather he dies or not!

Local electric company requires a automatic disconnect with a back-up generator.

T_Bone



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Reido in MO

12-06-2004 09:03:22




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to T_Bone, 12-05-2004 23:27:30  
Hi T-Bone. I didn't mean to imply that hooking up to your service panel this way was "the best way" or "the only way". My point was only that too make sure you throw the main breaker if you do hook up this way to eliminate the possibility of a backfeed. We could debate all day how many people have ever been shot by an unloaded gun.
Reido



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buickanddeere

12-06-2004 10:01:16




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to Reido in MO, 12-06-2004 09:03:22  
Are you still saying it's ok to open the main breaker only for isolation from the utility grid. And then backfeed your service? The only way to connect a generator to a hydro service is through a proper double throw switch where back feeds are impossible. Some home tinker is now going to believe you and ruin equipment at the least, and possibly maim or kill somebody.



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Reido in MO

12-06-2004 10:40:20




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to buickanddeere, 12-06-2004 10:01:16  
No. Never did. I lurk, and ocassionally post here for entertainment purposes only. Are you saying that with my main breaker thrown, that I am at risk of being shocked while working on my household wiring?



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T_Bone

12-07-2004 05:00:42




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to Reido in MO, 12-06-2004 10:40:20  
Hi Reido,

But what the Utility companys and NEC is saying, WE do NOT want a loaded gun at all.

This is why they require the automatic disconnect. With a AD no one has to rely on a human disconnecting from the grid as the AD does this for you.

I've only seen one type of AD. I have no idea how many different AD types there are. This one disconnects the grid and the generator automaticly.

If power is coming from the genset the grid power can not be applied. Grid power is locked out.

If power is coming from grid then the genset can not be applied. Genset power is locked out.

The main load disconnect still works as it ever did. Throw the main breaker and no power is applied to the load center. The main breaker could care less if the power is being supplied from the genset or from the grid.

Well I've seen one other AD. That one worked as discribed above but if grid power became available then after 5min it would shut down the genset and use grid power.

If you lost grid power then it would automaticly start the genset and power the load as soon as the genset was too full voltage.

It also had 3 different grid power sources and would have to fail on all three grid sources before starting the genset. Another NEC rule for this application.

T_Bone

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JT

12-03-2004 16:03:14




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to Brian in NY, 12-03-2004 11:54:09  
I am not sure I would do this without inquiring to a good electricain. My brother has a 4 pole twistlock on his genset, and it has all 4 wires hooked up. I do not know what each does as I am not an electrician, so to answer your question, I would probably not do it. And as one guy said, you better make sure you have a disconnect at the breaker box, because if it backfeeds and kills someone, I have heard you could be imprisoned for murder/manslaughter.

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Short Round

12-03-2004 15:43:30




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to Brian in NY, 12-03-2004 11:54:09  
As with most questions asked on the net, you get about what you paid for. Here one of the answers the guy knows what he is talking about, the other.....doesnt have a clue. You must also "isolate" your generator system thru a disconect switch to avoid a "backfeed" into the power companys lines. More than a few linemen have died because of this backfeed. The transformer on the pole doesnt care which way the voltage comes, the transformer just tranforms it up or down. "Two 240 volt terminals for a total of 480 volts on a home generator... ya right" Many of the people who answer question mean well and are trying to help, but you must be able to tell who knows what they are talking about and who only think they know. Good luck.

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brianh

12-03-2004 13:51:42




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to Brian in NY, 12-03-2004 11:54:09  
Of course. 8500 watts at 240 volts is 35 amps, and that's full surge rating anyway. The rated output of 5500 watts is only 23 amps. The generator will stall out long before you would overload that outlet seriously anyway. Just make sure you get your neutral and ground on the correct terminals so the generator frame is grounded.



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jakej

12-03-2004 14:58:27




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to brianh, 12-03-2004 13:51:42  
On the twist lock 4 prong plug there are 2 220 terminals , one neutural and the fourth is not used and has no provision for a 4th wire and is not used.



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bigwood

12-03-2004 17:53:40




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to jakej, 12-03-2004 14:58:27  
Its called a ground.



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jakej

12-04-2004 10:18:56




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to bigwood, 12-03-2004 17:53:40  
Looking at the Colman manual with my glasses on it clearly states "the ground and neutral can be connected together on the load side. If the ground still bothers you hook it to a rod.



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HarryG

12-04-2004 13:50:05




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 Re: Have a generator question for you electricians in reply to jakej, 12-04-2004 10:18:56  
This is the way to go.

http://www.gen-tran.com/index.htm



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