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Another electrical question

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williamf

11-25-2004 03:44:46




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I have a Coleman 12k generator. I've got wiring done so that I can plug in the 240v for the well and water heater as well as 120 stuff. I'm not attaching it to the house wiring, I unplug what I need to run from the house and plug into the generator.
I found out that in order to use it for solid state 120v equipment I have to use an isolator that establishes the ground/neutral bond. That's not an issue with the 240v water heater, but what about the gas pack? The 240v fan would be ok, but it has a transformer that supplies lower voltage to a circuit board and the controls. Have I got to get a 240v isolator? When I talk to three different electricians a work I can count on getting four different stories. Some of y'all who've done this sort of thing might could level me out.
Thanks. Wm

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buickanddeere

11-26-2004 09:29:48




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 Re: Another electrical question in reply to williamf, 11-25-2004 03:44:46  
That's a whole lot of time, money and work for a complicated system that isn't user friendly for the wife to use. It took me quite a while but I�ve almost quite spending extra time and money to do a � *ssed job when it would have been cheaper, safer and faster in the long run to do the job right in the first place. I hope you didn't stick a male plug onto the end of the solid NMD-7 wire that used to run into the electrical panel. And are now flexing the solid wire. That "plug" system is legal in some areas to avoid using a transfer switch if a less than 12" length of flexible cabtire is used. I would only consider that system for use at a well in a cow pasture. As previously stated the generator doesn't make "ground". The generator frame has to be connected to a true earth ground or you will get bitten sooner or later. If you install the following � Ground level Switch, Outside Use C/W Meter Base� from Sommer�s Electric on the following link. The transfer switch/meter base installs fast easy and cheap onto where the old hydro service meter base was. Now just plug in any generator to the plug on the new meter base box and run your hydro service safe, simple and legal. Tractor powered pto units can be had new & used cheaper than comparable sized portables.

Link

I don�t know why people pay the price of a transfer switch on a �Emergency Panel� alone plus all the extra mess, cost and time to wire it in or have it hired done? Just take the money you would have spent extra on your emergency panel wiring and get a generator big enough to run most of the entire house loads. Just tell the wife not to use the electric clothes drier or the electric stove oven. You get what you pay for with a generator. A Coleman unit is good for running plain motor loads, electric heating and lights only. A cheap computer UPS will have to wired into the 120 V electronic furnace controls to prevent ruining them. Short cuts with electricity with wait as long as they need to, just to bite you, ruin equipment or start a fire.

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williamf

11-26-2004 16:21:43




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 Re: Another electrical question in reply to buickanddeere, 11-26-2004 09:29:48  
Thanks for the link. That's what I wanted all along. I hadn't been able to get anybody to admit that there was a simple switch that could go in the line between the meter and the panel.
I'll call them Monday. Wm



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FarmerDave

11-26-2004 05:33:25




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 Re: Another electrical question in reply to williamf, 11-25-2004 03:44:46  
I read the section in the book I mention below last night while fighting insomnia. The book is weak on transfer switches.

You need to ground whenever you use electricity, whether it comes from the power company or your own generator. Farms and county places are often said to be poorly grounded. That's why lightning tears up your electronics.

Generators pose several risks. You can electrocute the workers trying to repair the lines if you don't disconnect correctly. The power company can catch your generator on fire if you try to connect to their energized network.

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williamf

11-26-2004 05:48:14




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 Re: Another electrical question in reply to FarmerDave, 11-26-2004 05:33:25  
Yeah, that's why I've got it set so that everything I hook up is absolutely unplugged from the Co-op's power. I used plugs for each item instead of a transfer switch because that was the way I could do it myself instead of hiring it done and also because where my breaker box is (mounted in an interior wall in the mud room, drywall finished around it, "You're not tearing holes in my walls!"). The incoming line goes from the meter to the breaker box without being accessable, the wiring coming out of the breaker box goes down into the basement and then around the house; each individual thing is easy to get at.
Wm

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FarmerDave

11-26-2004 09:51:54




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 Re: Another electrical question in reply to williamf, 11-26-2004 05:48:14  
Well extension cords work but when you need them for a week they will be tiresome. They will alway require that YOU do the connecting and reconnecting.

Someplace you are going to set that generator. Drive another ground rod there and run a piece of #4 or #6 to the rest of your grounding system.

Home owners have drywall so they can tear into it. Someday you'll make an electrical improvement that is a real hit. Your leash and your honey do list will get longer.

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Rod in Smiths Falls, ON,

11-25-2004 16:29:31




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 Re: Another electrical question in reply to williamf, 11-25-2004 03:44:46  
I know what you mean about being reluctant to hook your genny up to solid state stuff. At one property we have a 5 KW Honda wired in to an emergency panel and I wouldn't hesitate for a minute to use it for electronics because the power seems to be of very high quality with minimal surging.

At this house all I have is a 1.65 KW Coleman, though, and I don't want to risk my gas furnace and circulation pump on it. If it gets cold during a power outage I'll try it, but not until.

The thing is the Coleman produces lousy power. I have measured the voltage at various times between 95 and 135 volts. I shudder to think of what that does to the phases. Just for the fun of it I plugged the same 100 watt trouble light into each machine in turn. The Honda's light was even and smooth. The little Coleman's flashed a lot.

I'll use the Coleman on electronic things only in an emergency. For the rest it can run a drill, saw or light just fine, and it's easy to move around.

But a 12 kw generator is likely a lot more sophisticated than this little portable. My friend's 7.5 kw Coleman makes pretty good power. What if you rounded up a disposable computer and monitor, then rigged it up to run whenever you have the generator on and watched to see if anything bad happened over time? It could be fine.

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Charles (in GA)

11-25-2004 14:18:23




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 Re: Another electrical question in reply to williamf, 11-25-2004 03:44:46  
It sounds like your concern might have to do with keeping the netural, and the ground seperated and the ground actually going to earth.

The generator supplies a hot, netural and I suppose the ground circuits, and that should be all you need. I've never seen anything that suggests that the frame of the generator be grounded to earth.

Charles



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Jake 2

11-25-2004 09:32:27




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 Re: Another electrical question in reply to williamf, 11-25-2004 03:44:46  
I, likewise, do not exactly understand what you're asking.

First off, I'm NOT an electrician---

But, if you are directly UNPLUGGING the well and water heater FROM the house and PLUGGING INTO the generator 240V outlet--doesn't seem to present a problem.

Now, to my way of thinking---if you are UNPLUGGING 120v equipment FROM the house electrical system and PLUGGING INTO the generator at the 120V outlet�

I really don't see the problem----

Unless I missed something here.

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tech4

11-25-2004 08:35:00




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 Re: Another electrical question in reply to williamf, 11-25-2004 03:44:46  
I guess I do not really understand your question. An isolater is usally considered to isolate ground and neutral which in some sensitive electronic circuits tends to reduce noise and interferrence. Except for certain main frame computers and audio systems that is not a problem. A non isolated system as normally found in your house has the neutral and ground bonded in the main power panel only. I can't imagine any reason your solid state equipment used in motor controllers and flame starters would not work with the ground and neutral bonded or not bonded unless you are trying to use the ground as a current carrying conductor which is a real no no. What type of solid state equipment are you using?

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williamf

11-26-2004 06:06:12




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 Re: Another electrical question in reply to tech4, 11-25-2004 08:35:00  
When I first ran the cable for the 110v into the basement and put a wall outlet on the end of it I checked it with a little device that tells if the wires are on the right parts of the plug - red light off, two yellow on is right - red light on, second yellow on, hot and ground are reversed, etc. All of the house outlets check ok. The generator, even directly in its 110 outlet, all three lights come on faintly. That's not even on the chart. I called Coleman. They said,"Oh,yeah. That's because the generator doesn't supply a ground neutral bond. You need a line conditioner to use any solid state components. Motors, heating elements- they'll be fine; no computers, no TVs."
The number they gave me to call, those people said their conditioner wouldn't establish the ground/neutral bond, they sent me to Tripplite. The item they had (which does sell itself as a noise reduction for audio and mainframes), when I plug it in to the generator and plug my tester into it, the tester reads ok. So I'm happy.
Except that I can't use the tester on the 240v to the gaspack, or check the gaspack's low voltage after its transformer. And I'm a worrier.
Thanks, Wm

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tech4

11-26-2004 07:33:18




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 Re: Another electrical question in reply to williamf, 11-26-2004 06:06:12  
Ok, I think I understand what you are seeing. First the generator does not provide a neutral/ground bond at the generator. That means the frame of the generator is not connected to the neutral wire in the generator. There should be a terminal strip on the generator or it could be external that will let you tie the neutral and ground together. The reason your lights are dim on the generator is because that bond is missing and you have some feed through coupling that gives you the dim lights -normal for that type of setup. The fact that bond is missing has absolutlely nothing to do with wheather it will work or not or the effect on solid state equipment. It is a safety problem , you will probably read 60 volts between ground and either the neutral or hot lead. Easily corrected by grounding the frame and bonding neutral and ground. This would have been corrected by the way if you had connected to house wiring with a transfer switch. Also it is normally no big deal using a generator stand alone as on a work site to power saws and drills and even a TV set. Most electronic devices only have 2 wires and do not have the safety ground because they are in plastic cases.

Now the Tripplett is really about the same as a UPS which keeps a constant 120 volts and probably constant 60 Hz frequency even with varying generator speeds and is ideal for most sensitive devices but most transformer devices can survive 50-70 Hz with no problem. The Triplett provided the neutral/ ground bond internally. Also this may be more of a safety problem because you do not have an actual ground connected to your set up as I understand and your devices could be running hot to touch. I think you spent a lot of money over something that was not a real problem in my estimation.

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williamf

11-26-2004 07:49:10




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 Re: Another electrical question in reply to tech4, 11-26-2004 07:33:18  
"I think you spent a lot of money over something that was not a real problem in my estimation."
That would be about normal. Two of the electricians at the mill told me that if I went through the house wiring it would eliminate the problem. 'Course they also told me that if I threw the main breaker I could back feed through a plug at the water heater and it would be ok, the only reason to have a transfer switch is because the power company guys are such worry warts, what they don't know won't hurt 'em. So I didn't feel comfortable about taking their advice about anything else, either.
First step, I'm going to call Coleman back and ask if I'm the first person to ever run into this, or what exactly did they think we'd be doing with their generator? Quick, before the caffiene wears off.
Thanks. Wm

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tech4

11-26-2004 07:39:26




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 better yet look at this site in reply to tech4, 11-26-2004 07:33:18  
Look at this site in the link below



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ScottP

11-25-2004 08:16:02




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 Re: Another electrical question in reply to williamf, 11-25-2004 03:44:46  
William
Take and ohm meter and check and see if you dont have continuity between the neutral and the ground already. They should be one and the same.
Scott



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FarmerDave

11-25-2004 07:24:00




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 Re: Another electrical question in reply to williamf, 11-25-2004 03:44:46  
Why aren't you using a transfer switch? I would suspect a transfer switch would allow you to continue to use your equipment grounding conductor ( green - bare ). I have not looked at transfer switches yet. But this book I'm reading the guy calls for a lot better grounding system than I have.

The book is, Wiring a House, I got it at HD last week. I found mine by the contractor checkout. It's got a section on transfer switches. I think Northern Tool has some small transfer switches, I thought were reasonably priced. It's worth a look the next you're in there. The front copy on the rack was pretty dog eared.

I am just setting things up. But I am considering a subpanel transfer switch near the furnace/pump/refridge. When the power goes out I will transfer that panel out and still keep perishibles frozen and the toilet flowing.

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williamf

11-25-2004 05:17:37




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 I know... in reply to williamf, 11-25-2004 03:44:46  
this doesn't seem to be a, strictly speaking, Tractor Tool sort of question. I should let you know that even though the generator was advertised here at home as backup power for the house its main use so far is to supply 240v for the welder down in the tractor shed. ;-)
Wm



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