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Air compressors

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CNKS

11-22-2004 08:56:40




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My current compressor is inadequate for sandblasting, at least at the speed I would like to do it. Rated output is 17 cfm@100psi, it is single stage. Question 1: If I add another similar compressor, preferably 2-stage and tie it in with the existing one, will that double the output, or is there some problem I am not thinking of? Question 2: A potential problem is amps. The 230 volts comes into the building thru a 50 amp breaker. The current compressor motor is rated at 23 amps. I have looked at compressors similar to mine rated at 15-20 amps. Assuming that the max amps needed when the compressors kick on are above the rated amps on the motors, how many amps can I use so that the 50 amp breaker does not trip? --would have to be below 50? My current compressor does not have a starter, the new one might have one. I do not need to run anything in the building if both compressors are running. Excuse me for proving my ignorance. What I would really like is a good used gas engine compressor capable of 75-100 cfm, but I can't find one, and probably couldn't afford it if I did.

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Rod (NH)

11-22-2004 19:12:44




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 Re: Air compressors in reply to CNKS, 11-22-2004 08:56:40  
CN,

I'll throw in my 2 cents worth. If you parallel another compressor of the same capacity, yes, the output would be essentially doubled. One thing you should note if you add a two stage: most 2-stage machines in the 5 hp category are operated with switch cutoff settings up around 175 psg and are supplied with tanks that are good for more than that, usually 200 psig. Single stage machines are unlikely to have tanks rated for more than about 150 psig. If you parallel a single stage and a two stage, be sure your relief valve on the single stage is working properly and that you install check valves on the outlets of both tanks prior to your tie in point - or at least on the single stage unit. You do not want the higher pressure unit to backfeed into the lower rated tank. You could also consider replacing the pressure switch on the 2-stage but that would defeat the extra storage you get when using the higher pressure.

Modern breakers should have enough short time overload capacity to accommodate reasonable motor starting currents without tripping. These starting currents can be several times the full load running current noted on the motor nameplate. I would guess that if you made sure that both motors would not start at the same time, then you likely would be OK. No guarantees though :o). Your single stage pressure switch is probably set for something like a cut-in at 95 psig and a cutout at 125 psig (or it could be 105-135). A two stage would likely be provided with a switch with a cut-in setting at 145 psig and a cut-out at 175psig. A 30 psig differential is common. This would mean that they would not start at the same time and that the 2-stage would carry the load until such time that the pressure dropped to 95 psig upon which the single stage would start up. Your problem would come if you powered up with both tanks below 95 psig - both motors would attempt starting and the breaker would probably trip. My 5 hp 2-stage is 17 cfm at 175 psig and 22 or 23 amps at 230 volts. I run that fine on its' own 30 amp circuit. Furthermore your 2-stage (if you use one) will not be at full rated motor load when the single stage starts. It will be running with a discharge pressure down around 95 psig. I don't really want to guess what the actual current might be but it would certainly be less than the nameplate rating. That would be to your benefit.

You won't know for sure until you try it but I think you at least have a chance for success as long as nothing else of consequence is in use on that branch circuit at the same time, such as significant lighting or something.

Bob is correct on the motor starter. It has nothing to do with either starting or running current.

If you are presently using a suction blaster, you might want to consider a pressurized unit for a significant increase in performance for the same air supply. If you are talking about doing entire tractors however, anything you do in the 17 or even 34 cfm area will not likely satisfy your desire for reasonable speed. For that you need the big stuff. My work speed is such that 17 cfm with a pressurized blaster pot is fine for individual parts, even things like fenders, but I wouldn't attempt a whole tractor with it.

Rod

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CNKS

11-22-2004 20:06:20




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 Re: Air compressors in reply to Rod (NH), 11-22-2004 19:12:44  
Thanks for the info. I currently don't have a sandblaster, except for a hand-held one, and with it my single stage 17 cfm compressor runs continuously -- with it's reed valves, I don't think that's a good idea. I have a feeling that even with a 2-stage 17 cfm compressor added to it, that both are going to run continuosly, meaning short compressor life. I don't particularly like one running for 15-30 minutes continuously, perhaps I worry too much. I originally bought the compressor for painting, and want to take care of it for that purpose. The minimum I probably need, according to what I have read on this board the last couple of years, is a 25 cfm compressor (absolute minimum) with automotive valves in it -- about $2500 or so, and even then it will be slow. As to the additional compressor, it should be faster than the angle grinder that I am currently using -- but I am hesitant to lay out 900-$1200 for a "cheap" 17 cfm or so compressor that may not last. I have taken parts to a professional sandblaster about 20 miles away who has a 350 cfm compressor, and his is in no way similar to what I am thinking about. So I will probably continue grinding, used about a million wire brushes so far (only a slight exaggeration).

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JOHN236

12-16-2004 20:32:18




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 Re: Air compressors in reply to CNKS, 11-22-2004 20:06:20  
i have what looks like a 1922 united states air compressors of ohio(or clev.)air compressor.in very good shape.i"ve painted it and got it looking excellent.i need a pic of another one and/or imfo on it.its a two cyl.



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fzbcheve

11-26-2004 19:44:35




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 Re: Air compressors in reply to CNKS, 11-22-2004 20:06:20  
there is nothing wrong with a compressor that has reed valves. Some 2 cycle engines, such as Lawnboy, use reed valves, and they run at much higher RPM and fore a lot longer time.

have a reed valve unit that l blast with for long periods of time. sometimes for an hour or more. no problems and the unit is six years old.



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CNKS

11-28-2004 11:13:50




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 Re: Air compressors in reply to fzbcheve, 11-26-2004 19:44:35  
Could be, I was told that by a dealer that wanted to sell me a $2500 compressor rather than the $850 one that I bought -- Have since found other higher priced compressors with reed valves, but I think they are better valves than the ones in mine--don't know.



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DL

11-22-2004 19:06:18




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 Re: Air compressors in reply to CNKS, 11-22-2004 08:56:40  
Howdy... I'd be more concerned with wire size than I would with the capacity of the breaker. If the breaker trips, no big deal, but if a (possibly undersized) wire overheats, you'll find out when the fire dept rolls up! Most electric motors use 2 - 3 times more power at start-up (depending on their efficiency) than stated on the id plate... and, if you're using two compressors in tandem, chances are good that, at one time or another, they'll try to come on at the same time. Even if you get the two compressors to work, it'll STILL be painfully slow! I have a 7.5 hp compressor that produces 27 cfm @100psi... takes forever to blast anything. Start looking around for a gasoline powered compressor... you'll find one! Last spring, I bought a 175 cfm for $1500, saw a 185 cfm diesel at an auction (after I'd already bought mine)... went for $900, couple months later, I found a 100 cfm gas compressor for a friend... he got it for $1100. Once you have an adequate supply of air, blasting is a "breeze"!!! HTH,
Regards, DL

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CNKS

11-22-2004 20:12:04




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 Re: Air compressors in reply to DL, 11-22-2004 19:06:18  
I have an electrician that told me how to wire the shop, going to ask him if I decide to do this. I may look and see if I can find a gas one -- I don't know about diesel, may not use it enough to keep the fuel clean. Would sure like to have at least 100 cfm for $1100 though.



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T_Bone

11-22-2004 12:21:33




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 Re: Air compressors in reply to CNKS, 11-22-2004 08:56:40  
Hi CNKS,

You'll need a part called a time delay relay, about $20, used on refrigeration equipment then have it wired in the control circuit by a licensed sparky.

First I would have the sparky look at what you have for available power then go from there.

T_Bone



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Bob

11-22-2004 09:35:21




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 Re: Air compressors in reply to CNKS, 11-22-2004 08:56:40  
A motor uses several times namplate amps at startup. This will be more likely to work (barely), if both compressors do not start at the same time.

As far as the new compressor having a starter, all that is is an electromagnetic switch that closes to power up the motor, taking the full load of the motor current off of the contacts in the pressure switch. I has NOTHING to do with the current actually needed to power the compressor.

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