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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Hardfacing, T-Bone and others

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chvet73

11-11-2004 20:00:49




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OK. I'm trying to hardface a loader bucket. I checked with several local suppliers to see what they had available. I have a Hobart Mig 175 and a Lincoln 'Buzz Box'. I'm a far better Mig welder than an Arc guy. Everyone told me mig wire was only available in thick sizes and large expensive rolls. They recommended I use Stoody #31 rod.
I have since discovered on the Stoody site that they have a new .035 mig wire for hardfacing available in 5 lb. rolls. Too bad no one offered it to me.
But here's the problem. I bought the #31 rod and tried to use it. What a nightmare. Had a terrible time maintaining an arc. Worse yet about half way thru each rod the rod turns cherry red. It gets so hot that it falls apart right where it's held in the rod holder. Stoody recommends 100-120 amps. I tried higher amperage, better arc but the rod gets red faster. Lower amps, 100 or less and it's impossible to strike an arc.
So where do I go from here is the big question.
Thanks for all your help in advance.

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T_Bone

11-14-2004 02:18:14




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 Re: Hardfacing, T-Bone and others in reply to chvet73, 11-11-2004 20:00:49  
Hi chevt,

It's been years since I've ran any Stoody rods and I don't remember them being hollow but remember them being a solid electrode. CRS to many moons ago.

I would suggest you pay close attention to elecrode angle of 0 to 5�. This will allow for fasters metal transfer between the electrode and base metal.

Make sure you have preped the base metal clean to sound "white" metal.

When striking the arc, make sure your quickly raise the rod off the base metal for preheating then start forming your weld puddle with a closer arc. With tubular electrodes there's a fine line of the correct arc length for a given current setting for a given travel speed.

Make sure your using DCEP. Follow the leads back to the machine and double check they haven't got crossed. Make sure the leads are not coiled nor crossing over one another.

Check for a bad ground clamp or electrode holder.

Could be your rherostat has a dead spot so when you try to fine adjust amps it skipping over the amp setting you need. If all else has failed with no improvement, then install a 1/8" x 36" (filler rod) dropper resistor between the ground clamp and the work piece then adjust your amp control. Careful here as the resistor will become cherry red hot!

Adding 500� of preheat should not have any ill effects but would be one of my last suggestions to try. Being careful of too much weld build up would be of more concern.

Every electrode has it's own quirks to work out and when I haven't used a electrode it makes it tuff to suggest a cure all plan. Mig you would not have been satisifed with as you would be fighting the same problem plus feeder problems.

T_Bone

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kyhayman

11-13-2004 12:19:05




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 Re: Hardfacing, T-Bone and others in reply to chvet73, 11-11-2004 20:00:49  
In my adult farmer class, when we do hardsurfacing, it seems that most people try to melt the rod too deep into the base metal. Results are very similar to what you are experiencing. Hot rods (as the harder alloys are poorer conducters of heat than the base plate, flux distortion, and all kinds of funky thermal problems). This also radically weakens the 'hard surface'as steel from the base plate becomes mixed into the surface bead. Usually they try too long and arc and too wide a bead. I've not used the particular rod you refer to, seems I wind up with mostly Lincoln rods for hard surfacing. I normally run 90 amps AC with no preheat, flat bead, travel speed=to rod burn, no weave, chip, wire brush, and lay next bead next too it with a 20% overlap.

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NC Wayne

11-12-2004 22:02:00




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 Re: Hardfacing, T-Bone and others in reply to chvet73, 11-11-2004 20:00:49  
I just looked at the literature from Stoody on the link below and your right, they call for 100-120 Amps for the 1/8 rod. If you look a little closer though when they tell you how to run it DC+ the first polarity listed and AC second. Usually when a mfg. does this they are meaning that the first thing listed (DC+) is the more recommended of the two and that the product will do best when used this way even though "acceptable" results can be obtained with the other choice. To me what your describing sounds like something that typically happens to a rod when it's used with the wrong polarity. By this I mean that due to the flow of the current the heat of the arc is being concentrated too much on the rod instead of on the base metal. Still, Stoody says that it can be run with AC so you should be able to do it like that. Since you have no other power supply other than your AC buzz box then you have no choice but to do it with AC. In that case my suggestion would be to keep the amperage down as low as possible and to experiment with holding different arc lengths as you run each pass. Just about every rod out there is gonna be a little different, and hard facing rods probably a little more so than most. In this case I think you need to keep the amps low and the arc as short as possible, but I could be wrong...like I said just experiment a little and see what works best for you. I've seen alot of hardfaced buckets in the quarries we work in but I've never actually seen one with "pretty" beads. If that's something your trying to make happen that may be another problem, you might need to speed up the passes and not worry so much about it being "pretty" as simply laying down a bead. Now depending on what part of the bucket your facing, there are alternatives. Typically when we redo a bucket we strip the bottom with 4" strips of 4140 preheat treated material. It's tough enough to last a fairely long time in normal usehowever if your moving highly abrasive material or scooping off a concrete par for instance, Cronatron has hard faced mild steel plate that you can use. All you have to do is lay the strip on and weld it with your average mild steel rod. I've seen their stuff used in a few EXTREME applications and I can say in all honesty it is GOOD STUFF. If your doing the inside of the bucket though your pretty much stuck right where you are now. One last thing I just thought about. I didn't see it called for in the literature,but then again I didn't look at all of it that close, but often it will call for the base metal to be preheated before welding. You didn't say wether or not you had done that and I don't think it is the cause of your problem, but it might not hurt to preheat the bucket before you start. Hope some of this helps. Let us know what you get worked out. Good luck, Wayne

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Leland

11-12-2004 17:07:33




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 Re: Hardfacing, T-Bone and others in reply to chvet73, 11-11-2004 20:00:49  
WE got some plate and cut to size and made wear plates on buckets.Held up real well and easy to repair.



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500sks

11-12-2004 08:52:02




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 Re: Hardfacing, T-Bone and others in reply to chvet73, 11-11-2004 20:00:49  
I did some hard surface welding for a friend with his miller 210 we needed to run .045 wire and bought hard surface wire it was about $200 for a 30 or 35 lb spool. It was real easy to weld with and has stood up very well this year we did his loader bucket and hoe bucket.



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JT

11-12-2004 06:35:17




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 Re: Hardfacing, T-Bone and others in reply to chvet73, 11-11-2004 20:00:49  
I do not have a whole bunch of welding now how, but ususally when I have a hard time keeping an arc, it is becasue I do not have a good groung. This could also be causing your rod to get hot and turning red when using. My dad has used studite for years as a hard surfacing rod and usually welded at 100-110 amps with good success, but he also put his ground very close to where he was welding.



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Ray,IN

11-12-2004 21:03:18




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 Re: Hardfacing, T-Bone and others in reply to JT, 11-12-2004 06:35:17  
The Eutectic - tooltectic 6HSS (AC-DC), is a hard overlay for steels. We used it in the toolroom to repair cutting edges, and for building composite blanking and punching dies. It wears very well and is easy to work. The 1/8" rod works in the 80-120 amp range, the lowest that gives a good flow is best.



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