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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

OT WELL PRESSURE QUESTION

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lenray

10-23-2004 12:28:00




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My son-in-law has a 4 in. well with a submergible pump.
Pump turns on at 40 psi and turns off at 60 psi. When using water it drops to 40 and the pump turns on---just as soon as the pump turns on the pressure drops to zero with very little water and in 4-6 seconds it goes back to 40 and then to 60 and shuts off. His pressure tank was waterlogged--no air in tank--he put 38 lps. of air in the tank and then this problem started.
He has a check valve in the system near the pressure tank--not sure if it is working.
Any help with this problem would be much appreciated.
Thanks len cen. mi.

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workhorse

10-24-2004 08:47:35




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 Re: OT WELL PRESSURE QUESTION in reply to lenray, 10-23-2004 12:28:00  
you may have a bad check valve at the pump,or a hole in the pipe down the well, causing a delay in the water reaching the surface. been in the water well business for 35 years



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Mark - IN.

10-24-2004 07:14:12




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 Re: OT WELL PRESSURE QUESTION in reply to lenray, 10-23-2004 12:28:00  
Good Sunday morning from Bristol, IN. Heat off, lots of blankets, over slept, felt great.

I've never had a bladder tanks myself, so can't answer to that. But have always had 60 gallon none bladders and still have one, and they do have to be pressurized periodically because as release water, air mixes with it in snall amounts, and over time, water log. That's a given.

With a non-bladder tank, can usually tell the water level on the tank by the condensation or sweat that has formed on it. When pressurizing, I've never emptied the tank completely, but I do turn on the water and put air into the tank as its draining, stop, and wait to see how it reacts. My air guage does function properly. Since replacing all of my plumbing (sweated in new), I run a little higher than that - but hear that I shouldn't.

But 40 to 60 psi is the perfect range. It should shut down at about 60, pump kick in at about 40.

Sounds like you've got something else going on here. If have a non-bladder tank, and over pressurize it, it's gonna push the water until one of two things happen, until water level drops below the pipe leading to your inside plumbing, then is gonna blow air through your lines because pressure is/was higher than the pressure switch setting. But that don't sound like what's going on. The other thing could happen is super high pressure could blow pipe joints and stuff, but that don't sound like what's goin on either.

Here's what sounds like's going on if have a non-bladder tank. Tank is so water logged that the air pocket is very small, toooo small. You're pressurizing, and hitting 60 psi quickly in the small air pocket. Then when open the valve, air pocket expands and pressure dropd toooo quickly.

Try this: Open the valve, and pressurize as someone's watching the water flow. Does it increase as you air-up? It should. If does, keep keep airing up until can hear water movement drop so that tank is about 3/4 water, top 1/4 air. Then play with it from there.

When you put the air chuck on air inlet valve, blowing water out the valve at first? Is water logged for sure.

Don't ask me about bladders, but figure would be similar where release water, add air, release more water, add air until get set at 40 psi pump on, 60 psi pump stops.

Good luck, not hard, and I hope pressure switch isn't bad. That can and has happened, but aren't hard to change, and won't know until you try the other stuff first.

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david - OR

10-24-2004 18:49:58




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 Re: OT WELL PRESSURE QUESTION in reply to Mark - IN., 10-24-2004 07:14:12  
A bladder tank with an undamaged bladder is precharged as follows:
Turn the pump off
Open the tank drain valve and let all the water out.
Attach an air fitting and pressurize the tank to 2PSI below where you are going to set your pressure swtich cut-in pressure.
While you are doing this you should NOT hear air hissing out the drain valve -- that means your bladder is leaking.

A non-bladder tank can be pre-charged without an air compressor simply by letting all the water out the drain valve. Shut the valve off, turn the pump back on, and you will end up with 1/3 air and 2/3 water at 40PSI -- a simple matter of the ideal gas law at work.

Bladder tanks have more capacity than non-bladder tanks precisely because an empty tank can be pre-charged.

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Mark - IN.

10-24-2004 20:45:20




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 Re: OT WELL PRESSURE QUESTION in reply to david - OR, 10-24-2004 18:49:58  
I agree with you on charging a non-bladder tank by emptying it completely. And I was thinking just that when I envisioned one of those old 10 or 20 gallon tanks that sat horizontal with a typically a Wayne or Flint Wahling on them, right after I posted this morning. They often had no place to charge with a compressor until someone put in a T and fitted it for a air pressure fitting. Lot of them old tanks still out there, working just fine.

With mine is just as easy to hit it with a compressor that sits right next to it for that reason. That way don't have to run around the house and open valves to blow the air, and the ones I'd forget would scare the .... out of an unsuspecting user that was unaware of my joke on them.

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Lbj64

10-24-2004 05:38:22




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 Re: OT WELL PRESSURE QUESTION in reply to lenray, 10-23-2004 12:28:00  
If this is a bladder tank, there is too much air in the tank. The pressure switch turns on a liitle too late for the pump to resopond to the demand. One of your guages may be wrong . Release about 5 pounds of air and try it.



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David - OR

10-24-2004 05:34:35




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 Re: OT WELL PRESSURE QUESTION in reply to lenray, 10-23-2004 12:28:00  
The pump should run for a minimum of one minute each time it starts. Reading between the lines, it sounds like the pressure gets back to 40psi in 4 to 6 seconds and to 60psi shortly after that.

This would mean the tank is still waterlogged. Without the air cushion, the pressure will oscillate wildly each time you draw water.

If the tank is a bladder tank, and it is waterlogged, the bladder has probably failed. You cannot "fix" such a tank just by refilling it with air.

If the bladder has a pinhole leak, eventually water gets on both sides of the bladder. When you drain the tank to attempt to repressurize it, the bladder holds the water on the "wrong" side, and the air pressure builds quickly because the pressure chamber is mostly water. This gives your tank a miniscule (and inadequate) draw-down capacity.

You can get it working in a "limp-along" fashion by leaving the tank drain valve open as you apply pressure to the Schrader valve. This will force some of the trapped water past the pinhole leak in the bladder. You will have to charge it and let it drain several times, and you can't get all the water out (and the full capacity back), but it will help.

The real fix for such a situation is to replace the bladder or the whole tank.

If you have an older-style non-bladder tank with a snifter valve, then a simple drain and recharge should work.

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Leland

10-23-2004 20:46:49




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 Re: OT WELL PRESSURE QUESTION in reply to lenray, 10-23-2004 12:28:00  
lenray the best way I have found to clear a water logged tank is to open drain on tank use air to push all water from tank out of tank then adjust pressure you would be suprized how much water will drain this way tank has to be bone dry to set properly.



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Sid

10-23-2004 17:49:50




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 Re: OT WELL PRESSURE QUESTION in reply to lenray, 10-23-2004 12:28:00  
In addition to the what Dusty asked. Does it hold pressure when pump is not running? If not can you hear water running back into well? That would indicate a bad check valve. The pressure drops when pump kicks on makes me think of a hole or holes in pipe. The pump give just enough pressure to open the check valve just enough to allow water to run back down the pipe until the pump get the pipe full and starts filling the tank.

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Dusty

10-23-2004 16:39:26




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 Re: OT WELL PRESSURE QUESTION in reply to lenray, 10-23-2004 12:28:00  
Did he drain the tank and then put the 38lb. of air in it?

Dusty MI



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