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OT-- Concrete homes

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Crem

10-21-2004 21:35:42




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I am looking for the pro's and con's of building a home with concrete walls that are poured between styrofoam forms. Has anyone built one? Are they as good as they say, or are there too many unconventional problems along the way?




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wingnuts45

10-23-2004 19:28:19




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 Re: OT-- Concrete homes in reply to Crem, 10-21-2004 21:35:42  
How about www.superiorwalls.com i just had them put up ..nice check it out



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J.C. IN AZ.

10-22-2004 20:14:12




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 Re: OT-- Concrete homes in reply to Crem, 10-21-2004 21:35:42  
Not trying to take away from "Crem's" Query, but here where I live in AZ. there are 4 New houses under construction utilizing Walls of 7/16" osb 4'x9' Panels with a Foam Core 4" thick and 2" Foam Board on the exterior and 1/2" Stucco as a finish . No 2X4" or 2X6" Wall studs with Insulation as Usual. Drywall is installed on the Interior side directly to the OSB Board. 2 Men set the OS Walls in 1 day and did the Interior Partition Walls in 3 Days.1600 S.F. with 2 Car Gar.

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Jon in MN

10-22-2004 11:43:30




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 Re: OT-- Concrete homes in reply to Crem, 10-21-2004 21:35:42  
Crem,
We live in Minnesota and I built one on our farm last summer, A friend builds them for a living. Love it, and would do it again. I built it for insulation from weather and sound. What questions can I answer ?



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Crem

10-22-2004 21:18:05




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 Re: OT-- Concrete homes in reply to Jon in MN, 10-22-2004 11:43:30  
Jon, could you send me an email so that I can ask you a few questions about your house and the company that you worked with? Remove the nospam part of my email address.
I would like to thank everyone for their input on my question.



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Bus Driver

10-22-2004 10:45:14




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 Re: OT-- Concrete homes in reply to Crem, 10-21-2004 21:35:42  
I helped set up the ICF's for one house and checked on the project as it progressed. A contractor with experience with the forms is important. Steel rebar as recommended is also important. Given the hurricane damage in Florida this year, I would want an ICF house if I lived there. I believe that one properly built would be as likely to survive as any type construction.



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VaTom

10-22-2004 04:41:35




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 Re: OT-- Concrete homes in reply to Crem, 10-21-2004 21:35:42  
Hi Crem,

I live in (and build) a concrete home(s), and not just the foundation, everything. You're asking about insulating concrete forms, ICFs. I recommend them for DIYers. A number of conventional contractors are sold on them too, for the labor saving.

Not something I use as they put insulation on the inside of the mass, as well as the outside where you want it. This decreases the thermal advantage of the mass. Some manufacturers have lied about R value, preferring to talk about "effective R value". Also, you can't use a normal concrete vibrator. But for anybody who won't/can't use normal concrete formwork, it's far better than any other kind of wall.

Only big drawback to concrete walls is remodelling. Plan it right ahead of time. The problem that does occur for novices with ICFs is lack of bracing at the time of the pour. The manufacturer will make recommendations, follow them.

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Crem

10-22-2004 07:49:59




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 Re: OT-- Concrete homes in reply to VaTom, 10-22-2004 04:41:35  
Thanks Tom for the information. Can you expand a little more on the reason for not having the insulation on the inside wall? Also the R value with a 6" wall and 2.5" foam on both the outside and inside wall for the Wisconsin area. Is there a problem with wavy walls or keeping the walls perpendicular if things are done properly.



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Chuck- WI

10-22-2004 14:04:23




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 Re: OT-- Concrete homes in reply to Crem, 10-22-2004 07:49:59  
As a WI Architect, two things to consider... the pure mass of concrete will take longer to gain heat and feel 'warm' (VaTom is right) but this also means that once heated, it became a large heat sink that takes longer to also cool down ... becomes easy to maintain the wall temperature ... Check it out further so you're comfortable w/ the design and concept ..... the doors and windows are no problem ... brick w/ masonry backup or precast concrete is done every day on commercial bldgs

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VaTom

10-22-2004 09:27:19




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 Re: OT-- Concrete homes in reply to Crem, 10-22-2004 07:49:59  
The gov't lab at Oak Ridge came out with a report awhile back after examining insulation placement. They confirmed my assumptions.

I use mass, much more than you're considering, for almost all of our heating/cooling needs. The system I adapted is called Passive Annual Heat Storage (book came out in 1983). Mass, properly used, will help immensely in making a house comfortable. Ever talk to someone living in a log house? They generally tell me how well insulated the house is. Well, that's almost always wrong. Comfortable, yes, well insulated, almost never. It's mass working there. Slow to heat up, slow to cool down. Ours takes half a year to heat up, half a year to cool down. Annual storage, which requires a LOT more mass than you asked about.

If you put insulation between the mass and your interior, you lose a lot of the benefit of the mass. That's what Oak Ridge determined too. But as I said, I still recommend ICFs over most other choices.

R value is the total of the parts. 2" foam, 6" concrete, plus 2" foam. Total will depend a great deal on the foam, XPS or EPS. R26 is not an ususual claim. Anybody who claims R50 lies, or has foam I haven't seen. With the mass, the wall can have lower R and still be as comfortable as a low-mass, but better insulated, wall. Then there's infiltration to consider. Concrete's pretty immune.

We live in a 4166 degree-day climate. Madison is 7863, Milwaukee 7635. I use 2" of XPS on our exteriors. I'd use more there. Only by doing a total heat loss calculation can you really know what the benefit of additional insulation might be.

Plumb and straight are what the bracing does. Absolutely necessary. Not unusual for a novice user to assume you can drop the mud straight down and that there's no need for bracing. That's the guy who's frantically looking for shoring lumber from anybody in the neighborhood so he can finish his pour.

This is a LOT more than anybody else where probably wanted, so if you really want to hear more, I suggest it go off-list.

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Crem

10-22-2004 11:26:46




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 Re: OT-- Concrete homes in reply to VaTom, 10-22-2004 09:27:19  
I do have a few more questions especially about how the doors and windows are installed with the thicker walls. Can you send me an email? I have it shown, just remove the nospam part of it. Thanks.



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Cole

10-21-2004 21:38:49




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 Re: OT-- Concrete homes in reply to Crem, 10-21-2004 21:35:42  
A lot of new buildings around here are pre cast and everybody likes them they seal up good and are easy to heat and cool and the insurance co's love them less to burn.



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