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buickanddeere

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Coloken

09-07-2004 06:09:06




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In another place you mentioned adding a capacitor for power factor. Do you just place it across the input? Tried one years ago when I had a dinky 220 buss box hooked up with a long #10 wire. Would it help any on a 110 volt (130 amp)wire feeder on an extension cord?




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buickanddeere

09-07-2004 06:57:58




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 Re: buickanddeere in reply to Coloken, 09-07-2004 06:09:06  
Properly sized the capacitor with supply the reactive current instead of loading down the supply and power cord. Capacitor has to be close to the load. The capacitor has to be safely enclosed and fuse protected. A bleed capacitor is required to discharge the capacitor if it isn't always connected to the load. Doesn't matter what the inductive load is, welder, AC motor or lights with a transformer ballast. That lagging current has to come form somewhere. Power utilities wish all the customers had a power factor of .9 or better. The equipment could then do more work instead of just just heating the air with circulating current that does no work. A ball park number for sizing is to use a clip on ammeter and measure the no load current. Then size the capacitor to carry at least 75% to 100% of that amount of current.

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Coloken

09-07-2004 07:39:26




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 Re: buickanddeere in reply to buickanddeere, 09-07-2004 06:57:58  
Thanks. My brain hits overload when I go to power factor. Still have my old slide rule though. I seem to remember that if you had a use for a 100 percent capacitor load that the meter would not spin and you could get it for free.



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buickanddeere

09-07-2004 08:26:39




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 Re: buickanddeere in reply to Coloken, 09-07-2004 07:39:26  
At 1.0 power factor only then the wattage meter and VAR meter would spin at the same speed. VAR (volt amp reactive) is "free" from the utility as a watt meter only measures watts. However the heat I squared R losses from ciculating that current and the oversized equipment is factored into your power bill.



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CBBC

09-07-2004 10:59:11




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 Re: buickanddeere power factor in reply to buickanddeere, 09-07-2004 08:26:39  
This is an interesting thread. I have a new question for you.

I have a 75 HP 600 V irrigation pump- it is sized to cover 25 acres with a solid set irrigation system, sprinkler spacing 40X50 feet.

The last two years I have only been pumping on 8 acres. I want to keep the pressure at abou 55 psi. To maintain this pressure I close the isolation valve (after the pump) by half and open a 4 inch valve on the filter outlet to dump the excess water back into the reservoir. This works great.

However I get a penalty from the hydro company for not being efficient enough. Now the fine is only about $40 on a $400 bill. No big deal.

Question is, if I put capacitor in to correct the power factor, what happens next year when I run 15 acres, and the following year when I run 25 acres. Will I have to make adjustments with the capacitors each time I run the system closer to capacity.

Any thoughts, thanks Grant

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buickanddeere

09-07-2004 12:24:14




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 Re: buickanddeere power factor in reply to CBBC, 09-07-2004 10:59:11  
That is a classic problem, getting whacked with power factor and/or the peak usage penalty. Over sized/under loaded AC induction motors have an even worse power factor. Folks you are doing yourself any favors by oversizing your electric motors. Capacitors are expensive but may as well purchase enough to run at .9 or better power factor at the lightest load. Will still be fine at heavier loads. It's unlikely to get so corrected when under 100 to 115% full load. To pass 1.0 unity power factor and get into a leading power factor worse than 0.9. Odds are being in the US your motor runs at 440 to 480 volts. About 94.0 full load amps depending on rotor/stator design. A WAG would put reactive current at about 23.0 amps of lagging per phase at full load. Will be fairly close to 25amps of line current if the motor was running without anything connected to the shaft. Double check my math but a set of 220 mf capacititors would be close to 1.0 PF at 100% load. Don't go any bigger and double check those numbers. It's been a while since running the math and I keep thinking I've missed something.

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CBBC

09-07-2004 13:04:24




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 Re: buickanddeere power factor in reply to buickanddeere, 09-07-2004 12:24:14  
Not in US - but very west of you. 75 HP 600V (actually 575 V), motor runs about 75 Amps.

Just checked my bill-March 1- July 15, guess it is worsr than I remmembered. The usage charge was $193.94
kVarh power factor 69% surcharge 34% $65.94
Plus the Great Silly Tax (which I dont really mind, but I wish it would go to something useful)

Thanks Grant



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buickanddeere

09-07-2004 13:26:15




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 Re: buickanddeere power factor in reply to CBBC, 09-07-2004 13:04:24  
I was surprised to find someone who appreciates Molson Canadian beer, back bacon, toque hats and highlighting conversation with "eh" on this site. Sorry for the injustice the east does to the west but we have it even worse here. I�ve never seen and paid for so may French services where there is no French population. A set of three 175 mf capacitors on 600V Delta would do the trick with lots to spare. Might be cheaper to get lower voltage 300mf caps and connect them "wye" and ground the center point

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CBBC

09-07-2004 23:16:12




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 Re: buickanddeere power factor in reply to buickanddeere, 09-07-2004 13:26:15  
B&D, thanks for the info eh. Ill get my electicion friends to snoop around and scrounge some capacitors. Im not using much power now but in the next few years it will be increasing.

Funny thing about the French, I think they all moved out to the wet coast. In fact the two miles of road I live on is sometimes called the French Quarter. Even more amusing is the fact that my computer is set to CDN French- a bunch of keys do this ��������^^� instead of what I want them to do (wife is a french teacher - she specialized in French because it was the only thing which would get her a job).
At least Canada Post is making enough money to cover the expense accounts. Grant

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CBBC

09-07-2004 23:23:53




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 Re: buickanddeere power factor in reply to CBBC, 09-07-2004 23:16:12  
Politics and bad spelling are on my mind, I ment electricion.



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Chuck MI

09-07-2004 12:23:10




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 Two thoughts in reply to CBBC, 09-07-2004 10:59:11  
I work in greenhouses and have used a couple of different ways to solve this:

1) Clay valve type valve, one brand is Cycle Stop out of Lubbock, Texas. Restricts flow at pump, and works on the theory that the motor is only doing work for the water that it is lifting, therefore the backpressure isn't acumulating a larger electric bill.

2) Variable frequency drive. Check with your pump motor manfacturer, but most well pump motors are compatable with this. Basically the computer changes the sine wave of the incoming current with technology similar to an inverter welder, to create a power source of less than 60 hz to slow the rpms of your electric motor.

Hope this is helpful.
Chuck

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CBBC

09-07-2004 23:20:35




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 Re: Two thoughts in reply to Chuck MI, 09-07-2004 12:23:10  
Hi Chuck, I like the idea of the VFD, but I dont think it would be cost effective. Ive never heard of the Clay valve. I will google cycle stop to see what I can find out.

Thanks, Grant



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buickanddeere

09-08-2004 05:45:02




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 Re: Two thoughts in reply to CBBC, 09-07-2004 23:20:35  
Restriction the discharge port of the pump will limit flow and make the motor work to rated thus improving the power factor. However the hydro bill will be increased anyways having to pay the KW's for pumping losses agaist a restricted outlet. The VFD would be the ideal solution.



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