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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Gripe Session

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Davis In SC

08-31-2004 19:03:10

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I know a lot of the guys here work in mechanical trades in the day, I was wondering if any others have the problem I have had lately. I am part owner of a tool& die /machine shop, & customers are driving me crazy !!! They come to me wanting something made or fixed, & then proceed to tell me how to do it.... Most of them have no idea how part should be made. (Such as a guy referring to doing it on "that fancy drill press" (Bridgeport mill) I have really lost my temper at several lately.... even going as far as telling them if they are so smart & I am so dumb, maybe they should do it themselves They also think we should stop what we are doing to get on their job, & they want to watch, & most want to stand between me & the machine.. I have stopped letting customers watch for liability reasons & also because it is such a distraction. Do any of you guys have this problem, or am I just becoming a crabby old man ??? Thanks, Davis

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Leland

09-04-2004 19:23:50

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

I once saw a sign in a shop. Labor rates 35.00 an hr- 70.00 if you watch- 150.00 if you help. And he billed some people these rates they thought he was kidding until they got his bill.

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budyzbuddy

09-04-2004 18:08:22

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

I've owned several auto repair shops and am familiar with your problem. After years of trying to please everybody, including the kinds of customers you mentioned, I resolved to please myself, first and foremost. After all, I'm the one who learned my trade and bought all that expensive equipment. I'm the guy who is the captain of my ship. I'm the one risking my capital and reputation every day. I would no more let someone else tell me how to perform my work than I would tell a doctor how to remove my appendix. Why? Because that's HIS business. From this realization came the philosophy that I would NEVER let a customer dictate my price, procedure, quality or schedule. NO EXCEPTIONS! A sign to that effect diverted 90% of the problems and the rest I relished handling personally. I would tell a potential "problem patron", "I'm sorry, but we can only properly take care of 507 customers and we're at that number now. If you like, I'll put your on our waiting list, and if someone moves away or dies, you will move up the list. We have over 300 customers on our (imaginary) waiting list already and just can't take on any more." Believe it or not, some didn't take the hint and pleaded to be put on the customer waiting list. You learn to SMELL trouble after while. TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS. They are uncannily correct. When you see trouble coming, lock the door. If you do what YOU know is right, things have a way of not getting to you as quickly and your stress is reduced. If someone is having a bad day, don't share it with him, just because he wants you to. If you have to rely on that kind of customer in order to make a living, you better find a new line of work. Life's too short.

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budyzbuddy

09-04-2004 18:07:28

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

I've owned several auto repair shops and am familiar with your problem. After years of trying to please everybody, including the kinds of customers you mentioned, I resolved to please myself, first and foremost. After all, I'm the one who learned my trade and bought all that expensive equipment. I'm the guy who is the captain of my ship. I'm the one risking my capital and reputation every day. I would no more let someone else tell me how to perform my work than I would tell a doctor how to remove my appendix. Why? Because that's HIS business. From this realization came the philosophy that I would NEVER let a customer dictate my price, procedure, quality or schedule. NO EXCEPTIONS! A sign to that effect diverted 90% of the problems and the rest I relished handling personally. I would tell a potential "problem patron", "I'm sorry, but we can only properly take care of 507 customers and we're at that number now. If you like, I'll put your on our waiting list, and if someone moves away or dies, you will move up the list. We have over 300 customerts on our (imaginary) waiting list already and just can't take on any more." Believe it or not, some didn't take the hint and pleaded to be put on the customer waiting list. You learn to SMELL trouble after while. TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS. They are uncannily correct. When you see trouble coming, lock the door. If you do what YOU know is right, things have a way of not getting to you as quickly and your stress is reduced. If someone is having a bad day, don't share it with him, just because he wants you to. If you have to rely on that kind of customer in order to make a living, you better find a new line of work. Life's too short.

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Tommy D6-8U

09-01-2004 17:54:09

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

Davis,

Now that everyone else has had their say, I think you"re becoming a crabby old man! I like ya" though; give "em hell!

SMILE!

Tommy D6-8U in SC

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Mark - IN.

09-01-2004 16:20:46

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

Your machine shop got an office? Perhaps you could take the part and repeat what they told you they want done as best you can make out what it is that they think they mean or want, and then ask if what you repeated is correct. Once they say yes, or something to that nature, then tell them that you expect to have it done by ... and then ask them for a number where you can reach them, tell them to have a nice day. Something like that. I know what you mean, people can be very trying at times as they try to relate and fit in. Been through it myself, and done it myself. Did you know that pro-football offensive linemen can run a lot faster in real life than it seems as though they can on TV? If you ever find yourself on the field behind the bench, never, never, never ever give one of those guys any tips unless you know that you can run faster than they can. Holy cow! All I said was that he might not be as slow as frozen molasis if he went from a four point stance to a three point, and that way the defensive guys wouldn't blow by his big fat a$$ nearly as often. I'll never do that again, anytime soon.

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JeremyR

09-01-2004 15:44:30

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

I work in telecomm. industry and have to go to custmor's homes that have too technology for their own good because a sales man at Best-Buy told them they need it. They get home and can't set it up,program it and it is our fault. I just love to charge the hourly rates and have sign the work order for two hour trip charge, for reading a owners manual for 10 min.The other ones that burn me are the electrical engineers that have more paper then charmin. Hand'em your tools and say show me. Loads of fun.

Jeremy

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Vern-MI

09-01-2004 15:17:59

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

On the other hand.....

I took a 650 lb. weldment to a local machine shop to have one of the 1 inch mounting flanges machined off where it was interfereing with another fixture weldment on the same bedplate. I gave the machine shop the approved order, the modified drawing which was also marked in red what and where to remove material, and the fixture to be reworked. You guessed it, the machinist on the horizontal mill cut the weldment on the side opposite where it was supposed to be cut. When I got the weldment back I could not believe how any one could make such an error. What a mess! The fixture could not be welded without distorting the bearing mount locations. Ended up machining a pad and making a bolted on mounting flange to replace the cut off section and then also go back and redo the weldment to take care of the original problem. Everything had to be done overnite to take care of a plant stopper problem.

Next job they got was to build a large gearbox used to convert a front wheel drive dyno into a rear wheel drive dyno. The gearbox came in and didn't last 15 minutes. They had neglected to clean the shot blast sand out of the gearbox before installing the bearings.

Needless to say that machine shop never got any more of the work from our shop which was running close to twelve million bucks annually.

It was a good thing that I didn't get near that mill operator!

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Davis In SC

09-01-2004 16:33:46

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Vern-MI, 09-01-2004 15:17:59

Vern, I always like to communicate with the engineer or other person on jobs like that one... In fact, if there in any doubt, I insist on meeting face to face with the customer so we can look at the part & make sure we are on the same page. Might seem like a waste of time, but much better than a costly mistake for all parties. At our shop, the area to be machined off would have been marked with red Dykem, so there was no mistake which one was to be cut. The customers that are the worst are the "inventors" Last week, I had a customer wanting 20 thousandths taken off a part, I did it & he said I messed up..... Finally I realized he could not read his digital calipers. It was supposed to be 200 thousandths..... Go Figure... Regards, Davis

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T_Bone

09-01-2004 11:03:49

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

Hi Davis,

My wife was doing the dispatching on my service truck. She gets a call from a guy that gets on her case pretty good. A new guy, we never done business with him before.

She beeps me and gives me the details and then gets ticked I"m willing to take on the job. I told just don"t worry about it, I"ll get him to make it right.

When I came in that night, I flopped $75 cash on the table. The wife says whats that for? I said thats what the guy over paid for pissing my dispatcher off!

There"s more than one way to solve a problem.

T_Bone

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TimV

09-01-2004 11:57:28

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to T_Bone, 09-01-2004 11:03:49

T-bone: You"re right--there"s more than one way to skin a cat! One of our suppliers always referred to it as the "@sshole tax"--some customers paid extra for the hassle of dealing with them. If someone really needs to get something done in a hurry, they should be willing to pay extra for it. If they"re not willing to pay extra, then it can"t be as much of an emergency as they think it is. "Course for some strange reason the customers who always want things done in a hurry are the same ones that gripe that you"re charging too much--go figure! I"ve found that these customers will cost you more than they make you in the long run, and they get charged accordingly--if they want to take their business elsewhere, that"s their perogative. I"ll treat them with respect, but I won"t bend over backwards for them unless I"m being paid VERY well to do it.

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09-01-2004 17:22:24

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to TimV, 09-01-2004 11:57:28

We refer to that as a dumbshitfee, usually the guy who want it the fastest is the last to pick it up and pay for it. That is the main reason I see no reason to get in a hurry.

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Davis In SC

09-01-2004 09:37:57

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

Well, it appears I am not the only one that ever has this problem.... Don't get me wrong, most of my longtime customers are great, and I really enjoy working with them, & always try to treat them fairly & they do the same for me. Example: last week one called to get a quote on a job he needed in a hurry. I gave a price, & he offered to pay double that if I could do it in a few days. Needless to say, I was happy to work til Midnight several nights to get his job done!!! After thinking about it, my good customers are about 90% of our total income, so I guess I should just try to weed out the troublesome ones..... Thanks for the replies & advice. By the way, I do plan on taking a week off in October. Regards, Davis

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Bob in GA

09-01-2004 13:25:37

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 09-01-2004 09:37:57

I have always heard of a mangement principle that goes as follows:
This is the 80-20 rule. 80% of your problems will come from 20% of your people. Get rid of the 20% that cause the problems and 80% of your problems will be solved.

Bob

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09-01-2004 17:23:24

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Bob in GA, 09-01-2004 13:25:37

that equals you are 100% right

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RandyB

09-01-2004 08:49:46

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

I understand your concern but sometimes the customer is right. I had a cabinet maker agree to make some cabinets to the plans that were presented to him and he told me he was an expert cabinet maker. Only problem we got out of his way and he made all the cabinets only 1 foot wide when the print clearly called for 18 inches. Since I insisted on a contract, he had to remake the cabinets at his cost and he lost money on the job. One little hint from my wife would have saved him time and much money. I left orders with a local garage to replace the fuel pump on my car and when I went back to get the car he had done a tune up and not replaced the fuel pump, again he did the tune up free as it was not what I requested and he lost money so sometimes listening to the customer pays. If either would have been decent in their attitude, I would have paid the difference but with the bad attitude, I said to hell with them.

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KURT (mi)

09-01-2004 08:40:25

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

You have to charge accordingly to the emergency, like say the guy needs in now, okay it will take me 2 hours and I have to drop what I am doing. the normal price is $50/hour well for your emergency it is now, $100/hour. Then when the guy yells and screams you say that is best I can do. I get the same run by the seat of your pants bozos at where I work, they will get it when I get it done. The best line here is the line that give the price rates for the customer helping and watching.

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1945A

09-01-2004 07:37:50

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

You"re not alone.
Years ago, when my son was younger, we (he drove, I worked on) raced an old Chevy pick-up on the drag strip. It wasn"t particularly fast, but we had a lot of fun, and it kept all that teen aged racing fever where it belonged, on the drag strip, not street.
Anyway, several of my son"s friends, and their dads, wanted me to "build" them an engine "just like that one". Everything was fine, until it came time to talk cost. The ones that could afford to pay for parts, didn"t want to pay for my time. The ones that paid for everything (parts and time) felt like they owned me, and wanted a "cradle to grave" warranty.
Best move I ever made was getting out of that game!

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09-01-2004 07:39:59

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

The best way I have found to handle this is to be stern, but fair.
1. The shop is off limits due to insurance. 2. I already have made promises for today, I will get to it tomorrow or what an honest time would be.
3. The thing is, you have to stick to this and be honest wiht people and treat everyone the same.
4. You are not going to make everyone happy, but as long as you do not show favoritism, it should not cause you much grief.
5. If they still want to try to sneak in to watch, I normally have to go to the bathroom, or have paperwork in the office that needs to be done.
6. If all else fails, I tell them this could get messy and if you stand too close(closer than 50ft) you could get oil and/or grease on your clothes. amd ruin them.

I also deal with this every day in a lawn mower shop, it is a simple fix, why can't you do it now?? I politley inform them I have 20-30 simple fixes that were here before them, and if I put them off to fix something that is simpler than their, they would be upset also. As for wanting to tell me how to do it, I listen, then when they leave I do it the way I have done it for 25 years. The advantage of listening is once in a blue moon, it does pay to listen, sometimes you might learn something.

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09-01-2004 07:39:17

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

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kraigWY

09-01-2004 06:55:32

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

I understand your problems. I use to have a small combo machine/gun repair shop. I found the best solution is, if your shop can afforded it, is have a receptionest to deal with customers and the customers do not get in the shop area and the contact between customer and machinest is limited. With a gun shop that is the only way you can get any work done.

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john in la

09-01-2004 06:15:07

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

Put up a sign like my cousin had in his auto mechanic shop.

Labor rates..... $50.00 per hr
You watch..... . $65.00 per hr
You instruct.... $80.00 per hr
You help..... .. $95.00 per hr

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txblu

09-01-2004 08:33:45

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to john in la, 09-01-2004 06:15:07

You laugh.

Bought a "71 Chev stat wgn with 400 cuin engine and Quadrajet carb. That was one of Chev"s darker designs. Was air starved among other things; found out later.

Was running lousy and I was dumb and so I took it to the Chev dealer to have him get it to where it would run half-fast decent. Drove in and got out and was standing around. He had the carb off and had the parts in a wash tank.

Walked over to him and wanted to ask him some questions. Soon as I opened my mouth he picked up his shop towel, wiped off his hands, sat down facing me, and said "talk".

Smart guy. I shut up; he went back to work. He was on my clock. Apparently he had been there before.

Mark

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txblu

09-01-2004 06:02:09

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

You're a crabby ole senior citizen..... ..... .....like me.

Being an engineer and mechanism oriented, when I have a problem, I think through a solution. If the solution involves someone else, (machinist for example), I like to let them talk their approach and I bounce my approach off them. Together, we come up with the best solution. I certainly respect their experience and knowledge, but I also know that there are more ways to skin the cat and my way might have an ulterior motive of which the machininst is unaware.

In the final analysis, my position is this: you're the expert, do it the way you think is right.

Hope this makes you feel better.

Mark

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MAC,IL

09-01-2004 05:52:27

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

I've made a few angry, when they come in and tell me how to do it, I just say if you know so much then why didnt you fix it to begin with.

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bhb

09-01-2004 05:50:04

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

I had a rough carpentor that did all my houses. I heard he was working for a builder that was doing small houses. After that when I would advise him of my starting another house he told me that he was busy and it would be a month before he could get to it. I found another carpentor but I would ask the first guy if he wanted to do it. He would say in about a month. I overheard him tell someone if he didn"t want to do a job he tell the person that he could it in month. One day he came to me and said he was out of work and heard I was starting several houses and asking if he could them. I said they would be ready in a month.

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Vern-MI

09-01-2004 05:11:59

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

It's the same in every business where you have to deal directly with human nature. Try doing in home computer repair of both hardware and software. The customers typically are nervously looking over your shoulder, tapping on the back of your chair, frantically looking for the system software disks of which often are pirated and trying to see exactly what it is that you are doing to fix their system so they don't have to pay for another call. Then a year or two later they want you to come back for free and fix it again because "you were the last one to work on it". Then there is always the "can you fix this little problem while you are here anyway" sort of thing where that "little problem" is something major.

Then there is the inevitable time to pay the bill and the double checking of what was done and what was charged.

I did find myself getting more irate as I got older and took fewer real vacations. Maybe it was because the game was getting old and the scenario had been played many times before.

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rhouston

09-01-2004 08:45:30

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Vern-MI, 09-01-2004 05:11:59

I think computers are about the worst. I've heard the "it hasn't worked right since you worked on it" way to many times.(hey it didn't work AT ALL when I started on it) when what they mean is "it dosen't work/look like it did before the user crashed it. I will not work on computers for Doctors, Lawyers, or any church. Doctors and Lawyers never pay and Churches ALWAYS accuse you of trying to cheat them. Now if I was going to cheat someone it would be a bigger fish than a church. I'm sure we could go on and on and on.

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Chris Brown

09-01-2004 05:11:06

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

Yup, working for the public would"nt be half bad if you did"nt have to deal with the public. As far as I know I am the only one within 50 miles that will still fix a tire on a 2 piece(split rim),the customer asks can I watch so I will know how to do it next time. I said "NO!" You can pick it up in the morning,he got mad and took it to my buddy at the local tire shop and he refused to fix it,he told him to take it to me,he had his son drop it off a week later for me to fix.

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TheRealRon

09-01-2004 01:33:49

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

Paul gave you some good advice. Machine shop work has become very competitive. You likley don't have the luxury of treating customers poorly, at least not for long.

I once read...

"a happy customer tells 1 other person, an unhappy customer tells 10".

Those are words I live by.

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paul

09-01-2004 00:43:18

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

Time to take a vaccation & get away for a week or 2. While you are not wrong, you are not doing yourself or your business any good.

--->Paul

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J.C. IN AZ.

09-01-2004 07:28:25

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to paul, 09-01-2004 00:43:18

.Sir:Davis in SC has the best advise you will ever recieve relating to this Subject.My advise also.Without the Customer we all would have nothing to discuss.

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J.C. IN AZ.

09-01-2004 07:31:33

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to J.C. IN AZ., 09-01-2004 07:28:25

See? My Mind is running wild. I meant to refer to PAUL's Post.Forgive me DAVIS IN SC>

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paul

09-01-2004 14:49:54

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to J.C. IN AZ., 09-01-2004 07:31:33

We have a very good neighborhood auto mechanic a couple miles from me out in the country. He is always swamped with work. You can just see at times, he is just going buggy with it all. He needs to close the door a bit more often & get away, or he will burn himself out. That would be bad, as he is good & reasonable. Knows his stuff. He gets into the rat-race of all these cars lined up to be worked on.....

--->Paul

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RusselAZ

08-31-2004 23:34:37

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

You're not alone. Like you, I hate people who think you were just sitting on your butt waiting for them to show up to give you something to do. If they get pushy I will ask them why they think they're job is more important than the one I'm working on? If I am working on something and they start standing around and talking, asking questions, etc, I tell them it is costing them 1.40 a minute whether they slow me down or not.

I dearly love the people who bring their vehicle in with every new part they can find to put on with their 59.00 sears tool kit and try to impress on me how it just has to be something simple and won't take long because they did all the hard stuff. And THEN want to watch me so they will know what to do the next time whatever happened, happens.

Nope, It's not just you or your customers. They are spread out far and wide. I think we need a 4 day work week with a day off in between each work day.

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John,PA

08-31-2004 22:30:01

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

If your customers aren't complaining, your are not charging ENOUGH.

If you get their work done too soon, you aren't BUSY enough.

If you are not there, your not responsible ENOUGH.

Always let your phone ring 3 times.

Sort out who you WANT to work for. Tell the others that you are TOO Busy.

YOU NEED REST TOO! Hope this helps. John,PA

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Neal in NM

08-31-2004 21:43:35

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

Hey I was beginning to think I was the only one (hehehehe). I just quote these people an outrageous price and they tend to leave. Another thing that helps is to tell them they can't be in the shop due to insurance and escort them out. Generally people do not understand what we do in our profession and I just try to look at the obnoxious customer as money and repeat my saying "if it wasn't for stupid people I wouldn't have any work." Also "if it were that easy girl scouts would be doing it instead of selling cookies." Neal

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hey Crabby old man

08-31-2004 19:40:06

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Re: Gripe Session in reply to Davis In SC, 08-31-2004 19:03:10

You ain't alone here. Been there myself many a time. Several times just had to close the shop and get away from it all. Had several friends that would get in the same boat. Had one friend that would say that he was goin fishin and you better understand what he ment. Got to keep in mind that the customers pay the bills though. I retired now but lookin back my last few years of work I wasn't worth much. Wife tells me that I am startin to learn how to relax.

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