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rough running Suburban

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Paul S.

08-28-2004 03:30:24




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My family recently sold our machinery and stuff in Minnesota and moved to Mexico where we are working in a childrens home. They have a 1987 Suburban that won't idle or start very well. We just installed a new fuel pump on Wednesday and it seemed to be running fine. Now it won't start very well or idle, it seems to be getting too much gas. I pulled the vacumn line off of a vacumn advance that must work with the timing, it seems to idle ok after that. when I hook the line back up it runs rough and quits. You can see the control rod go down toward the engine when you put the vacumn line on. Is this control possibly bad? this vehicle has had extremely poor maintenance as there has been no one here full time to help. Thanks in advance. Paul

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jdoc_8

08-22-2005 21:24:15




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Paul S., 08-28-2004 03:30:24  
Ihave a 1987 3/4 ton suburban I truly love but today it just stopped running and we checked the fuel pump.. ignition module and etc but then I noticed that while we were getting huge amounts of fuel that there was no pulse in the injectors ..just a steady spray ... can anyone tell me what causes the pulse .. we changed the fuel regulator as well but still floods like crazy and wont start.. stranded and desperate.. JD

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Kendall

08-30-2004 14:22:32




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Paul S., 08-28-2004 03:30:24  
I"m in the middle of an "88 Suburban with many such problems. If indeed your system is the Throttle Body Injection (2 injectors in place of carb) then this web site is just about the best I"ve come across for help. First problem I had was hard starting, had to hold 1/4 throttle to get it going and dont let up until engine warms up. That problem was the engine tempature sensor next to the thermostat. ECM thought the engine was hot all the time. The port to access the computer codes is under the dash, left of the stering column near the brake release. The 2 pins on the right side are "A" and "B". (see web site attached). Jumper them together, turn key on, count "check engine" flashes for error code. 1 flash, pause, 2 flashes will repeat 3 times. This is the start and end of all the error codes. After 1+2 flashes three times, the "bad" error codes will flash. For example 4 flashes, pause, 3 flashes, longer pause (repeats 3 times)= error code 43 which is "no signal from knock sensor". If you can figure out how to read the error codes, you"re on the way to figuring out whats wrong. Go to this web site, read and click on the "troubleshooting" link. Once you get it running, clear the error codes by removing the fuse on the lower left, marked ECMB for 15 seconds. Keep us posted.

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Paul S.

09-07-2004 00:05:06




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Kendall, 08-30-2004 14:22:32  
Update on the Suburban from last week, I replaced the plug wires which fixed a lot of the problem. There is no SES light in the dash and I did"nt take the time to find the wiring etc for it. that is on my list to do. But it is running much better, still something wrong when I use the ERG valve hooked up, I removed it and it was clean. It is driveable now until I get the time to do more checking. Thanks all of you for your help, it gave me a lot of insight into the problem. from Mexico, Paul

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buickanddeere

08-30-2004 06:05:48




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Paul S., 08-28-2004 03:30:24  
If adding extra air at idle through the vacuum line, is the air filter plugged tight or the choke plate stuck shut? A balky EGR valve stuck open or leaking will certainly ruin the idle as previously mentioned.



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Paul S.

08-29-2004 03:15:17




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Paul S., 08-28-2004 03:30:24  
hey fellas thanks for the help. I was looking for a quick fix, I know better. Give me a day or 2 and I will let you know what I find. Since we are an independent faithbased childrens home we try to fix what we can, the Lord always provides and at times in different ways. The Lords blessings to you all. Thanks, Paul S.



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DaveCA

08-28-2004 20:06:38




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Paul S., 08-28-2004 03:30:24  
I am not very familiar with Chevies, so some general questions. Answering what you can may improve the answers to your problem. 1. Is it blowing black smoke out the tailpipe? 2. Is it a consistent, thump thump thump rough or an eratic roughness and is it only at idle speed? 3. Does it speed up when you remove that hose making it seem like it runs smooth or does it actually run smooth at the same RPM? 4. Does it respond the same way when you remove the hose from the PCV valve and meter the vacuum leak with your thumb over the hose end? 5. Did you change the fuel filter when you changed the pump or recently? 6. How was it determined that it needed a fuel pump? 7. Is fuel pressure on spec? 8. Have the spark plugs been checked?

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M oline M-5

08-28-2004 18:42:55




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Paul S., 08-28-2004 03:30:24  
I hardly post, But who is to say that its the original engine in the truck?? You know the Mexicans have to do with what they can muster for the most part. Quit debating about it and help the guy. MM M-5



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Dozerboss

08-28-2004 21:34:06




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to M oline M-5, 08-28-2004 18:42:55  
I don't know the chevy to help without looking at it in person. But if it was made in Mexico or modified as mentioned that could be why there is much debating about how it's equipped. They don't have the clean air act or even requirements that exhaust systems be kept on down there.

I know Ford has a plant down there. For years the ford guys were looking for mexician 302 blocks for racing because the casting is heavier.

Paul S if you could post a picture of the engine I'm sure someone in the thread can help. If its a mexican built, the usual emission decal used to id engines probably doesn't exist either.

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tompepper

08-28-2004 18:36:11




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Paul S., 08-28-2004 03:30:24  
how come nobody mentioned the timing chain....



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Paul swift

08-28-2004 19:14:53




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to tompepper, 08-28-2004 18:36:11  
Thanks for the comments, the vin # is 1GKER16KOHF51208T. I'm pretty sure this is right if I can read my writing. The fuel pump is in the tank and it has fuel body injection. The vavle I pulled the vacumn hose off of is on the left side of the body injection unit on the manifold. there is no line to the distributor. I think it is the original engine. forgive me for not offering more information. Paul

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Allan in NE

08-28-2004 13:42:26




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Paul S., 08-28-2004 03:30:24  
Hey Guys,

Sorry, just ‘taint that way. You are thinking of the EFI system, which was first introduced by GM back in 1985.

The Suburban was the last of the Chevrolet line to change over to the ECM control and didn't do so completely until the 1991 model year; later in 1993, all the automatic transmissions in all lines went to electronic ECM control.

The '87 Suburban (both GMC and Chevrolet, except for the EFI component) is all but identical to its 1973 1/2 ton light truck (read: pickup) counterpart.

Carburetors, fuel pumps & Distributors finally met their demise to TBI, electric fuel pumps and the ECM controlled distributor about 1989 or 1990 in this model & the body style, running gear, transfer cases, lockout hubs, etc. were, at last, all switched over to the new style in 1991.

Further, the new style engine blocks were not introduced in this line until around 1989 or 1990 either.

So, what this man is telling you is indeed so: he has a vacuum advanced distributor in his 1987 Suburban.

Worked on too darned many of the things,

Allan

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Lil-Farmer

08-28-2004 15:36:46




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Allan in NE, 08-28-2004 13:42:26  
Don"t know what country you are from Allen, but I have one parked in my driveway. Owned it since new. I can take a digital picture if you want further proof. :-) 350,000 miles. Couple of transmissions and one long block at 260,000. Use it to tow an enclosed race car trailer weighing about 8500 lbs.

It"s been a good vehicle, and I"ll probably run it another 100,000.



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Allan in NE

08-28-2004 16:38:01




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Lil-Farmer, 08-28-2004 15:36:46  
Hi Guy,

No, just shoot me the VIN #. I can tell you how much air is supposed to be in the tires from that VIN. :>)

What year is it? An 87? And why are ya throwing rocks at me? Because it does or does not have a vacumn advance?

Guess I lost the thread here. :>)

Allan



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Lil-Farmer

08-29-2004 08:53:01




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Allan in NE, 08-28-2004 16:38:01  
Hi Allen,

Not throwing stones. Just trying to explain where my previous answer came from. I own a 1987 suburban, bought it new. It is computer controlled and does NOT have a vacuum advance. Transmission is also computer controlled in conjunction with a throttle postion shift cable.

As I said before, this Mexican unit might be different, but for you to say that they were never built this way was wrong.

You have a great day.

Lil-Farmer

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TheRealRon

08-28-2004 14:38:52




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Allan in NE, 08-28-2004 13:42:26  
Nope. Chevy switched over to HEI in 1976 on all trucks, including Suburbans. I've owned a bunch of them!



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Allan in NE

08-28-2004 16:28:56




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to TheRealRon, 08-28-2004 14:38:52  
Hi Ron,

No doubt you owned a bunch of 'em; but I was the feller working for GM who was repairing 'em out on the line.

HEI stands for "High Energy Ignition" and was/is a pointless ignition system.

That's all it was; a new distributor that replaced those problematic points, which had to be cleaned & reset or replaced every year, and this new system was packaged in a nifty new styled distributor with the coil in the cap.

This is where we switched to the "fat" plug wires and the resistor type plugs too because now we are pumping 30K volts instead of the 15K volts used with the breaker type systems. Hotter spark, more of a chance to ignite, don't ya know.

The system was so far advanced that it didn't even have to use an old-fashioned hall-effects switch. It used a pickup coil mounted under the vacuum advance plate instead.

This new distributor started coming in between 1973-1976 depending upon model. If memory serves, it showed up first in the Vega as a precursor in 1972 while everything else was still using the points.

This was the next system that was introduced for air pollution control following the PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) system, which was introduced in the 1968 model year. The point-type systems tended to wear the point’s wear plate with time; this changed dwell, which in turn had a huge effect on ignition timing and therefore, it affected the pollutants at the tailpipe.

A year or two later, here comes the EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) systems and we all fought them till we were black in the face. Hmmm, no pun intended. :>)

However, all this while, the HEI advance was still controlled by vacuum over mechanical on many configurations.

And, it continued to be all the way up until the computer controlled units in cars and pickups started showing up in 1985, again, depending on the model, and this changeover was a slow gradual process.

They were phased in (and out) this way because of the Federal Clean Air Act, and how it was written. The lighter vehicles (read: numbers of vehicles on the road) always got hit first.

In the Suburban, because they were heavier, these old units weren't completely phased out until they were totally done away with in 1991.

Ron, I think you are confusing the HEI with the CCF (Computer Controlled Fuel) systems that started showing up in cars and light trucks in 1985 at the same time the first ECM’s (Electronic Control Module) were introduced.

This is where the computer first controlled the fuel at the carburetor; yes then later, the advance of the timing at the distributor. Remember all those old 305’s that always bogged at launch?

The carburetor was squeezed down so tight on these things, that they begged for fuel and flat fell on their face unless a little “behind the scenes engineering” was done to the timing to let ‘em breathe under those lean-fueled carbs.

All pickups had this system in 1985 then switched to TBI fuel injection in 1987 when the body style changed.

But, not on the Suburban, ‘cause it was so darned heavy. It sneaked in under the wire on many of these Federal mandate issues until 1991.

1991 was also the year the Suburban started having its leaky intake manifold gaskets too.

And yep you guess it, it was because of that darned new block and it’s different angle matching the TBI’s intake manifold.

I left GM and went to Ford in 1999.

Have a good one,

Allan

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cannonball

08-29-2004 07:36:39




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Allan in NE, 08-28-2004 16:28:56  
the 1987 model pickup is the same as 1986..they changed body styles with 1988 models, which might have came out in 1987, but i have both a 1986 and 1987 they look the same..but under the hood the 86 has a carb and 87 has tbi...the last year for the same body style was a 1991 model in 1992 models they changed to new style(which probably did come out in 1991)..i remember this very well cause i drove a 1991 double cab one ton and they did not change till the suburbans did and my sister wanted a 1992 or newer to get new body style....have nice day may god bless

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Bob

08-28-2004 16:49:54




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Allan in NE, 08-28-2004 16:28:56  
Allen, gotta jog your memory a bit! I agree the GM pickups went to EFI in 1987, but the body style was changed for the 1988 models.

A friend used to have a 1989 Suburban with a 5.7L TBI EFI. EFI was definitely on AT LEAST SOME Subs before 1991.

I have a 1992 Sub, the first year they caught up with the body style of the 1988 pickups.

However, I understand the guy with the problem Sub is in Mexico, for which I"ll bet all bets are off for how it"s set up!

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Allan in NE

08-28-2004 17:25:08




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Bob, 08-28-2004 16:49:54  
Hi Bob,

I have so many folks argueing with me now, that I'm questioning my own sanity. LOL!

When I was in exile (after the darned farm sale) I moved up North and was a stones throw from the Canadian border.

I worked on these darned things every single day for 12 solid years in a huge dealership. Then I spent 2 years in the parts department there.

Everything I've stated on this subject I swear to you, in my own mind, I know to be true. I.E. body style change came in '87 for 1/2 ton pickups but not for Subs. The Subs came in the 1991 model whith their style change.

There were two or three years there where they were in a cloudy area; they could be either way.

With tonners, it was the same way; there was an "iffy" area of crossover years, but I think you're right about the 1 tons, they might have come in 1988.

Could it be that it is a regional manufacturing, distribution and location issue? Could GM have had some grey area concerning this? Dunno.

About your friends Sub with the EFI, yes I've seen 'em, but just not the rule.

Or am I just plain flat goin' nuts here? This is really starting to bother me a little :>)

Allan

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LONNIE BOHM

08-28-2004 18:28:11




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Allan in NE, 08-28-2004 17:25:08  
my 85 surburban has 454 engine its always going threw plug wires from the heat.new set and it runs great,twice before had to change carb. gasket and it was in two pieces when i removed it. ran great with new gasket. not real happy with 454 thinking of changing engine to a new 350 cause its a nice truck. any thouhts or suggestions appreciated



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Bob

08-28-2004 19:51:32




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to LONNIE BOHM, 08-28-2004 18:28:11  
Get some aftermarket spark plug wires with fiberglass sleeves over the boots. Be sure your manifold preheat is coming off completely, and that that radiator is absolutely clean on the inside, and clean on the outside, and the viscous fan drive is working properly, to keep as much air moving over the engine as possible, to keep heat down.

If you do decide to swap in the small block, the bell housing and motor mounts are identical between the two engine series.

One difference will be the A/C compressor, alternator, and power steering pump brackets and pullies.

If it"s a manual, the clutch will bolt up to the proper flywheel on the small block, and if it"s an automatic, it should work with the small block with relatively minor "tweaking".

Depending on how the "Burb is set up, the small block MAY need a set of numerically higher ratio gears in the axle(s) to perform to expectations.

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Bob

08-28-2004 18:12:42




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 Questioning relative sanity in reply to Allan in NE, 08-28-2004 17:25:08  
I agree with you, Allen! I"m through for the night, and I think I"ll go find a cold sasparilla!



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MAC,IL

08-28-2004 11:52:51




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Paul S., 08-28-2004 03:30:24  
My memory is not what is was, but check the EGR valve, sometimes you can clean them. Clean all the ports under the mounting surface also. Make sure the diaphram is free. Seems to me that should be a throttle body F.I. system, I am not real sure. My ole 84 had a carb. If it's TBI it may just may need a good cleaning.



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TheRealRon

08-28-2004 11:49:09




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Paul S., 08-28-2004 03:30:24  
Lil-Farmer has it right. 87's have the HEI ignition with neither vacuum nor mechanical advance, it's all controlled by the ECU. The is no vacuum line at the distributor.

If you are playing around near the TBI, you unplugged the line to the EGR. The EGR valve is stuck open. Very common on these models especially with cheap gas.

Leave it unplugged but plug the rubber line. In an emergency a golf tee will work but a nail or bolt is less likely to fall out. The truck will run fine without it but it can and should be fixed. If you are lazy, buy an new one. If you have a little time, the valve comes apart easily and with some B12 Chemtool and a small wire brush you can remove all the carbon and will be back in business.

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DaveCA

08-28-2004 20:18:34




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to TheRealRon, 08-28-2004 11:49:09  
yes could well be carbon in EGR valve. For some chevies, I don't know which ones, after-market supplier has a gasket with screen that you can buy to help prevent the carbon problem? Should do some cleaning too or problem may well return.
May be more suceptable to detonation with EGR disabled.



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Lil_Farmer

08-28-2004 11:31:54




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Paul S., 08-28-2004 03:30:24  
Unless the suburban in Mexico is built differently than it"s U S counterpart, or someone has modified it for some reason, it has fuel injection and electronic ignition advance. I. E. No advance mechanisim in the distributor what so ever. No vacuum pot on the outside of the distributor. The distributor should be small with a remote mount coil to the front left of the distributor. If it has the old, large style ditributor with vacuum advance, someone has modified the vehicle and you will probably never get it to run exactly right.

Are you sure you aren"t viewing the EGR valve which is on the right side of the motor, close to the throttle body? An open EGR valve at idle would cause extremely rough running and there should be no vacuum signal to it at idle. If there is vacuum to it at idle, there is either a sensor or computer malfunction.

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Allan in NE

08-28-2004 09:53:08




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Paul S., 08-28-2004 03:30:24  
Hi Paul,

I've been working on Chevrolets since I was in the 6th grade (I'm now 60 years old).

Sounds like your mechanical advance is frozen. This model of Chevys had a very bad habit of doing just that.

The mechanical advance is "stuck" in the advanced position. Then, when your vacumn advanced is hooked up, it advances the timing even further.

Endgame is that the distributor "thinks" that you are going down the hiway wide open at 100 mph all the time. So, at idle, the truck just doesn't run very well 'cause the darned timing is so far off.

Lift the distributor cap off, then take off the rotor. The mechanical advance mechanism lives under that rotor. See if it is frozen in the wide open position.

Tryin' to help,

Allan

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Paul S.

08-28-2004 07:49:16




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Paul S., 08-28-2004 03:30:24  
Harryg. I pulled the vacumn line off the advance and plugged nothing, neither the line or put my finger over the little hole on the advance. when I pulled the line off the advance the rod on the bottom of the advance goes back up into the advance and the motor runs better. I did"nt take it for a drive but it probabley won"t run very well if the advance is"nt working. But, I will check everything else as mentioned and try to find a pickup coil. Thank you,Paul

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Harryg

08-28-2004 05:00:16




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Paul S., 08-28-2004 03:30:24  
2 things come to mind with your description. Either the vacuum advance diaphram has a bad vacuum leak(you didn't say whether you pinched the vacuum line closed"plugged" when you removed line and it ran okay). More likely I think its a bad distributor pick-up coil. What happens is the vacuum advance is moving the breaker plate to advance/retard timing. Well these pick-up coil wires are small(about like phone wires) after a while the wires either flex to point of coming apart from pick-up coil causing a no-start or some of the strands break causing a bad connection and poor running. Replacement of pick-up coil will require pulling distributor. Gues a pick-up coil is about 35 bucks. Also might want to check carefully cap and rotor.

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jakej

08-28-2004 08:07:10




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 Re: rough running Suburban in reply to Harryg, 08-28-2004 05:00:16  
A check of the EGR valve could be a good move. The carbon builds up and prevents it from closing causing a vacume leak, I believe GM's can be cleaned. The leak causes very rough idle, motor stalls on acceration also at hiway speeds the check engine will light. I have a ford that the dealer coulden't find with the machine. I told them to replace the EGR valve and was told there was no problem with it, after a short arg it was replaced that was 3 yrs ago.

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