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Stray Voltage?-long winded

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Salmoneye

10-17-2000 05:47:08




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Hey Guys,

I own an old farmhouse where the wires are the old silk/cloth wound type. The whole house has these encased in the flexible metel conduit. The conduit is attached at the access and is the 'ground'. In addition to 'grounding' at the box, there are 3 points that I know of that are 'grounded' to iron pipes embeded in the earth. I went to wire a new light fixture that is switched. I killed power, removed the old fixture, and turned power back on. I have one of those 2-prong 90-300V circuit testers. With the switch on, I touched black and white and the tester lit brightly. I then touched black to 'ground' on the box, and the tester lit brightly. I then touched white to 'ground', no light. So far so good...
I then turned off the wall switch. I touched black to white, and got a faint glow! I touched black to the box and got full power!
I then pulled the switch plate and tested the lines to the switch. Absolutely no power at the switch, it is all ground. I unhooked one wire from the switch and tested the black wire at the fixture again. Full power from black to the box, but a faint glow from the white wire.

My questions are:

1. Isn't it supposed to be the 'hot' wire that is switched?

2. Where could the white be going to ground with it disconnected from the switch? Inside the conduit?

3. How dangerous is this? It has been working for 50+ years so far...

Thanks in advance for any and all thoughts, and I apologize if this is not the correct forum for this question.

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Salmoneye-Kettle of fish, eh?

10-19-2000 11:17:28




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 Re: Stray Voltage?-long winded in reply to Salmoneye, 10-17-2000 05:47:08  
I want to thank one and all for the concerns voiced in regard to my question.
I did not realize the kettle of fish that I was opening!

I want to assure you all that the service entrance is a modern 100amp access installed in the early eighties by a master electrician. It is correctly grounded to a 6 foot copper rod at the meter (which was not grounded when I moved in). At that time I voiced some concern about the older BX wiring. The Master did quite a bit of looking and continuity testing and assured me that the BX was in very good, serviceable, condition. He also stressed that the new 'system' was much safer in that the old wiring had all been connected through 2, 30amp fuses. Now the house is supplied by 10 individual, 10-15 amp breakers (not including the 1 double breaker for the well pump).
I have the utmost respect for electricity and its dangers.

Thank You All Again!

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T_Bone

10-20-2000 04:34:09




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 Re: Re: Stray Voltage?-long winded in reply to Salmoneye-Kettle of fish, eh?, 10-19-2000 11:17:28  
Hi Salmomeye, Sorry that I put a blackeye (pun intended) on your thread, but I did have concern for you and your family's safety.

I should have added that you do have a serious problem with this circuit. This one circuit has to be corrected and the rest should be tested to see if any more exist. It's the way it's wired is the seriousness of the problem. If you have one wired this way, one can assume you have more!!!

As they say, this circuit is an "accident" waiting to happen.

T_Bone

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Hartshorn

10-19-2000 09:32:18




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 Re: Stray Voltage?-long winded in reply to Salmoneye, 10-17-2000 05:47:08  
I agree very much that you should contact an electrician if you are unsure about what you are doing and that it is very difficult to give electrical advice sight unseen. But...I can give you this advice....never trust the color of the wire! Even (from personal experience) if it was something you think you remember installing yourself. There are times when both conductors in a romex wire may be wired hot..(especially in the case of switches and even more especially in the case of double-pole switches)....even by trained electricians. It is standard practice to correct the color of the wire at the ends with electrical tape but you cannot count on that being done...AND it is of absolutely no help if you are working in the middle of the run.

However, if this information is news to you...you should definitley contact an electrician!

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All Of You Are Wrong But One !!!....

10-19-2000 02:34:49




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 Re: Stray Voltage?-long winded in reply to Salmoneye, 10-17-2000 05:47:08  
This was the only correct Post:

"Hire an Electrician Before You Burn Your House Down"

Now if Jim K, Ray M41, Davido, Jim WI, and ironhead: Will e-mail me, I will explain why ALL of you are wrong on what you said to this post, of how this circuit works and how to correct the problem, what each of you missed and why one should NOT give out electrical advise over the internet, provding that each of you will post back here too Salmoneye after I have convienced you why I'm right, so that others may learn of why you can NOT give advice on high voltage (over 24v as defined by NEC) circuits over the internet without writing a book!!!

What I do NOT want each of you to do is post the correct answer on this post so someone "might" kill themself or a loved one thru a miss-understanding of directions.

If I'm wrong, I'll post here that I don't know what HE** I'm talking about!!!

This is not the place to learn about high voltage electricity!

Salmoneye, Please hire a qualified electrician as by your post you are beyond your skill level for this job. Learn from watching what he does! And no I will not tell you whats wrong with your circuit! and I hope no one else does!! Atleast that way You'll be here for this Christmass!!

T_Bone

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T_Bone's e-mail: [email protected]

10-19-2000 02:51:28




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 Re: Re: Stray Voltage?-long winded in reply to All Of You Are Wrong But One !!!...., 10-19-2000 02:34:49  
Forgot the most important!!!



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Ray M41

10-19-2000 06:26:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Stray Voltage?-long winded in reply to T_Bone's e-mail: [email protected], 10-19-2000 02:51:28  
You are right. We all assumed he knew a little about it and trying to help, gave our opinions. Without looking at the makeup in the box it sounds like the neutral is switched. This should be LOOKED AT and corrected by a QUALIFIED electrician.
Another thing to check is the neutral to ground bond at the service entrance. This is the weak link and the most overlooked. An electrician will need to check this. The power Co. may need to come out to open the meter box for the inspection.

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tophat

10-18-2000 09:38:18




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 Re: Stray Voltage?-long winded in reply to Salmoneye, 10-17-2000 05:47:08  
check your insurance (life and homeowners) before doing any wiring. sounds like there could be a bad neutral on another part of the circuit and it is back feeding to the light. Didn't Consumers Energy of Michigan say there was no such thing as stray voltage on 60 min a few years ago?



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paul

10-18-2000 21:17:23




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 Re: Re: Stray Voltage?-long winded in reply to tophat, 10-18-2000 09:38:18  
I think dairy farmers could tell 60 Minutes a thing or two then! They have dealt a lot with stray voltage, & some big lawsuits to boot. Cows are very sensitive to electicity, even low levels.

--->Paul



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Salmoneye

10-18-2000 13:06:57




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 Re: Re: Stray Voltage?-long winded in reply to tophat, 10-18-2000 09:38:18  
Don't have any clue about 60 minutes, but when I moved in in '83 the wires to the house were bare copper and were running through about 75 yards of trees and vines. The power company came out to hang new wires when I had my access upgraded and they, and the master electrician I had here, both were amazed to find 30 volts stray that was going to ground through the vines.
At least that was what they told me... :)

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Jim K

10-17-2000 15:32:37




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 Re: Stray Voltage?-long winded in reply to Salmoneye, 10-17-2000 05:47:08  
Hello Salmoneye I will try to help you with this problem Just be patient this could take a few posts. First off the type of wiring you describe is called B.X. (trade name)otherwise known as M.C.
(metal clad cable)Which is inherently good stuff.
Any how, How many cables can you see going into the box that the switch is in (not conductors)
whole cables If there is only one the problem you describe makes sense. In which case the white is being used as a switch feed. Normally what an electrician will do is bring the power cable to the light in the center of a room or where ever and then drop a cable down to a switch. Rule of thumb is to feed the white and come back on the black.With no neutral actually at the switch.Just one constant hot and one switched hot.When you got a dim light with your tester I think you were actually testing across the switch and going to ground through the light bulb. in your cieling box
you should have one black (power from the panel)
connected to the white wire going to the switch.
There may be other blacks connected to it going to other outlets and such don't worry about them right now. The black comming back from the switch
should go right to the light's black wire. The white wire that is in the power cable (from panel)
will connect to the white wire from the light and any other white wires that may go to other outlets and such. And any other black wires left over will go to the black wire that you connected to the white wire of the switch.Take a look and see if this is what you have and post back.Hope I didn't confuse you, Good luck.
Jim K

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Ray M41

10-18-2000 19:24:00




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 Re: Re: Stray Voltage?-long winded in reply to Jim K, 10-17-2000 15:32:37  
Jim is right in this case. Old time electricians will bring the feeder cable (black-hot and white-neutral) to the center light fixture box. He will then run a similar cable to the switch box. In the ceiling box he will connect the switch cable's white wire to the blacks to feed the switch and have the cable's black wire to return to the light. Check your switch. If it is the lighted toggle handle type then this could be where the "stray" power is coming from. It is making continuity to make the the tester glow.
I wish modern homes were still wired this way. Makes it much easier to trouble shoot. Now a days the electricians bring the power to the switch box first and then just go everywhere from there. A real mess.

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Davido

10-18-2000 08:49:08




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 Re: Re: Stray Voltage?-long winded in reply to Jim K, 10-17-2000 15:32:37  
I have done a lot of residential electrical wiring and I agree with JimK. His explanation is the right way to do it so I will not repeat it. It can be a little confusing if you are not familiar with it. I can send a diagram if you need it.



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Salmoneye

10-18-2000 12:59:27




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 Re: Re: Re: Stray Voltage?-long winded in reply to Davido, 10-18-2000 08:49:08  
First, let me say thanks for the time and thought that went into both of your posts JimK and Davido!
I want to thank everyone else for their replies and concern also! I will get an electrician in here as a last resort, but for the present, I want to try and understand the situation before I shell out money that I frankly do not have :)
I have been in this house since 1983 and have never had a problem. When I moved in there was only 110 volt access and the whole house was wired with 2 fuses. I had that changed to a modern (220 volt/100 amp) access with many breakers. The electrician that did the job did not mark any of the circuits, and I have been figuring them out for 15 years :)

1. There is one 'cable' at the switch. There is a black and white at the switch.

2. I have found a receptacle (outlet) that is on the same circuit, but have not pulled the plate to look at the leads.

If I am undersatnding the replies, this could account for the 'slight' ground that I found in the white wire of the box for the fixture (even with the switch off), if I had something plugged into the outlet such as an instant-on Television with a capacitor? The 'hot' at the fixture might go to ground through the TV? Should I unplug everything and test the 'hot' at the fixture again to see if the slight ground is not present?

Thanks Again!

PS Davido: I would really appreciate it if you could e-mail me the diagram! I do not think that the wiring is in bad shape. I have done a lot of renovations of old apartment buildings and I have seen 'bad' wiring before. It is just that I have never put a tester on anything before, and this surprised me.

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Jim K

10-18-2000 16:26:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Stray Voltage?-long winded in reply to Salmoneye, 10-18-2000 12:59:27  
Hi Salmoneye Just for giggles. At the switch test
from the black wire to the metal switch box.Do you get a light? Flip the switch (on or off) do you get a light. now do the same with the white wire. What do you get.If after doing these two tests and you get no light with any combination that I just gave you it means that your box is not grounded. (not a major problem)you just have make sure that all of your cables are clamped tight where they enter any switch box or outlet box all the way back to the panel.You should not have to pull the plate off the outlet to check it unless you suspect that is wired incorrectly.
You could do as you sugest with the TV. but you have to make sure that any light bulbs or any other electrical appliance is also disconnected
and hope that the same circuit doesn't go out to the shed or garage or even the attic.(not really nessasary) Locate all the wires as I told you in the first post connect it all up and let us know what you get.Good luck Jim K

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Hire an Electrician Before You Burn Your House Down.

10-17-2000 14:07:59




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 Re: Stray Voltage?-long winded in reply to Salmoneye, 10-17-2000 05:47:08  



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Jim WI

10-17-2000 10:41:27




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 Re: Stray Voltage?-long winded in reply to Salmoneye, 10-17-2000 05:47:08  
1. Yes (the switch is wired wrong!).

2. Given that you describe the old style cloth insulation and a glow from the bulb, I suspect an insulation breakdown inside the conduit. It could be at the box for the fixture and might have happened when you moved the wires while removing the fixture. Old insulation breaks fairly easily.

3. The incorrect wiring on the switch is dangerous because you think the fixture is off when it's not. That's the only real danger since the you indicate that the black is the hot wire as it should be.


The question you need to ask yourself is just how much of the rest of the wiring is wrong? I wouldn't be surprised to find a few other things (and maybe something really bad).

I think I'd be doing a bunch more checking to figure out what else is wrong.

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ironhead

10-17-2000 08:02:34




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 Re: Stray Voltage?-long winded in reply to Salmoneye, 10-17-2000 05:47:08  
Hello salmoneye, If I read your post correctly I would think you have the white "nuetral" wire going through the switch instead of the black "hot" wire. If it is wired that way it will work and give you the symtoms you have. Your white wire is hooked into ground in your service panel. The black wire should be wired through the switch for saftey sake.



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