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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

OT: AC Advice

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Roger

07-24-2004 20:58:04




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2 summers ago I put Duracool hydrocarbon refrigerant in the AC system in my 87 Mustang (R12 system). It worked wonderfully for one summer. Unfortunately, last year my heater core up and died, which necessitated evacuating the system to change out the core. As it was fall by this time, I didn't bother recharing the system until this summer. Once again, I put in the Duracool, and for awhile everything was peachy. A few days later, I was no longer getting any cool air. Turns out, the core in the Schrader valve on my compressor was standing a bit proud of the compressor body. When I reinstalled the low side cap, it depressed the pin enough for the refrigerant to leak out ($60 worth dagnabbit!). Unluckily for me, oil came out as well, so I do not know if there is enough left in the system to just recharge it and go. The oil is as clear as water, and quite sticky. I have no reason to believe that it has ever been changed. I was wondering if there is a method to see how much oil is in the system. Can I buy this oil through Ford, or do I have some phoning to do? Also, is there anything special about the core in this Schrader valve? Can i just install another designed for tires? I tried one and it screwed right in, although it was a bit too long. It shouldn't see any more than 60 psi on the suction side of the compressor. And advice appreciated.

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Jon H

07-25-2004 20:58:52




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 Re: OT: AC Advice in reply to Roger, 07-24-2004 20:58:04  
I hope/suspect with the refrigerant oil still being baby oil clear that things may not be as grim as T Bone makes it sound. I would bet that with a couple hours on the vacuum pump in warm weather,and at most a new dryer,the system is ready for a R134a conversion kit. I don't know of anything in the propane/butane blend that most hydrocarbon refrigerants are made of that will react with moisture/air to make the acidic mess he talks about. Some of the other weird blends may be different. My experience with a dozen or so conversions of systems left with little or no charge for up to several years has been very good with nothing more than a 2-8 hour vacuum job. Installing the EPA mandated HPCO switch(about $20) while doing the conversion will protect the compressor on the rare chance somthing does plug up.I doubt the system is that messed up,and all that flushing will remove a lot of the mineral oil from the old R12 hoses which serves as a pretty good stopleak to keep R134a in those old non barrier hoses. Most AC repair/retrofit sites only recommend flushing a R12 system in the case of a compressor or dryer bag failure for this reason.

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T_Bone

07-26-2004 01:33:13




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 Re: Re: OT: AC Advice in reply to Jon H, 07-25-2004 20:58:52  
Hi Jon,

The acid would come from the oxygen in contact with the oil and moister in the system thats been sitting empty for a year.

The hose having been sitting with enough mineral oil to keep them sealed up for what little the flushing solvent would take away.

If the system was run with solvent for for several hours then I could see your point and providing the hoses hasn't been changed with the new type hose.

I guess I'm pretty much set in my ways as I don't like doing the job more than once.

T_Bone

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T_Bone

07-25-2004 16:31:49




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 Re: OT: AC Advice in reply to Roger, 07-24-2004 20:58:04  
Hi Roger,

What you are seeing is called mineral sludge acid. You have used a refrigerant that was not fully compatable with the mineral based oil in your system along with moister in the system.

Most R134A refrigerants require a ester based oil. There refrigerants that claim to be compatable with mineral oil but that remains to be seen.

You could have also let moister into the system that reacted with the refrigerant and the mineral oil as you didn't recharge the system for a year. It would have been useful to leave the system with a small refrigerant charge.

You now have a huge mess on your hands. I'll give you my best SWAG of what might help.

Remove the expansion valve and dryer from the system. Install a new dryer. By-pass the expansion valve. Pull a quick vaccum to 25hg then charge with R11 or R124.

Circulate the R11 at 1500rpm for about 1/2hr with the system on high then dump the charge into a waste refrigerant cylinder.

Take off the compressor and dump the oil in a approved container. Wash the compressor internals with R11 a couple times.

Intall the compressor with 6oz of ester based oil.

This will be some very nasty acid stuff so don't get it on your cloths or skin.

Replace the dryer and expansion valve, vacuum to 28hg, then charge with dry nitrogen or Co2, dump that charge then vacuum to 29.925hg then fill again with dry nitrogen. Let sit for 15min. If no pressure loss then the system is leak free.

Dump the nitrogen charge then add 4oz of ISO 300 Ester based oil then recharge with R134A or R401A.

Refrigerant charge is correct when the high side is reading 30� over ambient temperature when the compressor is running at 1500rpm with good air flow over the condensor.

Anything less than the procedure listed will just be wating for the next plug up to happen.

T_Bone

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Lee

07-26-2004 22:35:01




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 Re: Re: OT: AC Advice in reply to T_Bone, 07-25-2004 16:31:49  
while you guys are chatting about AC problems, The wifes 99 dodge air is cold then after about 40 miles the air seems to get warmer am I low on 134 or is it something else?



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txblu

07-27-2004 06:03:31




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 Re: Re: Re: OT: AC Advice in reply to Lee, 07-26-2004 22:35:01  
Best way to check is 1st thing in the morning, crank her up and look and feel at the accumulator and suction line back to the compressor.

If both aren't sweating (amount depends upon temp and humidty) you are low. If you notice a very abrupt line or change in sweating characteristics on the side of your accumulator you are looking at your ref level. Additionally, you feel them with your hand and they are cold, really cold.

I think what's happening is you are low and after that distance, the engine compartment is heated up pretty good. This heat is absorbed by the accum and hose and competes with the freon temp. Since the system works on proportionality, the 30 degree below ambient that your evaporator is attempting to maintain is partially defeated by the engine heat. Were the system full, it would have enough BTU capacity to accommodate it. Makes sense. Some mfgrs insulate the accum and suc line. My wife's Tahoe is like that. Helps preserve the BTU's. My Dodge truck has the line insul, but not the accum.

Mark

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Leland

07-27-2004 14:09:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: OT: AC Advice in reply to txblu, 07-27-2004 06:03:31  
TXBLU thanks always been a dummy when it's comes to ac repair. If I understood you just add a little 134 and I will be ok? Or do I need to pull her down 1st?



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txblu

07-26-2004 10:42:12




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 Re: Re: OT: AC Advice in reply to T_Bone, 07-25-2004 16:31:49  
Wow. I was faced with something like that in my hay truck and said heck with it. Rolled the windows down.

Mark



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Jon H

07-25-2004 15:03:32




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 Re: OT: AC Advice in reply to Roger, 07-24-2004 20:58:04  
On that model/type system I do not think there is any way to measure the remaining oil charge. What you describe sounds like normal mineral refrigeration oil.This might be a good time to do a conversion to 134a,any remaining mineral oil in the system will cause no problem. The newer $40 conversion kits with 134a and compatable synthetic ester oil pre mixed are easy to install. About all you need is a vacuum pump to evacuate the system of any remaining refrigerant and moisture, a set of guages to check system pressures and a vent thermometer. You should be seeing about 24-28 psi low side,and max of 2-2-1/2 times air temp on the high side.
The tire schrader valve is made of different materials that may not react well to the refrigerant or oil. use a new refrigerant valve. You must have had a problem with the refrigerant cap,as they are supposed to hold full pressure and not rely only on the schrader valve to retain the refrigerant. The extended pin/leaking valve might have been a result of the schrader valve seal breaking down from a reaction to the hydrocarbon refrigerant. I don't like any of that so called drop in stuff,It voids warrenty on any new AC parts and the hydrocarbon type has the potential of filling the passenger compartment with flammible gas.
A conversion to 134a will allow you to use the slick snap adapter fittings with their sealed caps to prevent leaks,plus you can do a full system recharge for around $20 or less of 134a which is avalible almost anywhere,any new parts warrenty stays in effect and any AC shop will service the system.
My best advice on recharging a converted system (R12 to 134a)is to install aprox 50% by weight of 134a ,then slowly add 134a a few ounces at a time untill vent temp stops dropping. This is the "sweet spot" where you get max cooling with min high side pressure. Record the OZ of refrigerant used on the conversion sticker. Good luck

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Jon H

07-25-2004 14:59:28




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 Re: OT: AC Advice in reply to Roger, 07-24-2004 20:58:04  
On that model/type system I do not think there is any way to measure the remaining oil charge. What you describe sounds like normal mineral refrigeration oil.This might be a good time to do a conversion to 134a,any remaining mineral oil in the system will cause no problem. The newer $40 conversion kits with 134a and compatable synthetic ester oil pre mixed are easy to install. About all you need is a vacuum pump to evacuate the system of any remaining refrigerant and moisture, a set of guages to check system pressures and a vent thermometer. You should be seeing about 24-28 psi low side,and max of 2-2-1/2 times air temp on the high side.
The tire schrader valve is made of different materials that may not react well to the refrigerant or oil. use a new refrigerant valve. You must have had a problem with the refrigerant cap,as they are supposed to hold full pressure and not rely only on the schrader valve to retain the refrigerant. The extended pin/leaking valve might have been a result of the schrader valve seal breaking down from a reaction to the hydrocarbon refrigerant. I don't like any of that so called drop in stuff,It voids warrenty on any new AC parts and the hydrocarbon type has the potential of filling the passenger compartment with flammible gas.
A conversion to 134a will allow you to use the slick snap adapter fittings with their sealed caps to prevent leaks,plus you can do a full system recharge for around $20 or less of 134a which is avalible almost anywhere,any new parts warrenty stays in effect and any AC shop will service the system.
My best advice on recharging a converted system (R12 to 134a)is to install aprox 50% by weight of 134a ,then slowly add 134a a few ounces at a time untill vent temp stops dropping. This is the "sweet spot" where you get max cooling with min high side pressure. Record the OZ of refrigerant used on the conversion sticker. Good luck

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txblu

07-25-2004 05:53:29




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 Re: OT: AC Advice in reply to Roger, 07-24-2004 20:58:04  
Before the days of ozone depletion, I worked on an inop ac on a Ford. Problem was oil was packed in at the expansion valve and was more like grease. Cleaning of the clogged area and installation of a new filter/dryer took care of the problem. The compressor was a piston type (York) with a crankcase and had an oil fill level which made it easy to know how much oil to add. All that, and the R12 were readily available at the local auto supply.

Don't know if your ref. is restricted. If not you might attempt it yourself. You can still buy the parts at the auto supply, with the exception of the ref. Probably the guy at the counter can tell you how much oil your system takes (if rotary type wobble box) compressor. Probably need a full charge as the other, being old and viscous, will probably wind up in the filter/dryer. Can't get too much oil from the compressor standpoint (more or less as the returned ref. does cool it, but the returning oil is cool too). From a performance standpoint it competes with refrigerant and reduces cooling. But where it's noticeably too much I have no Idea.

Mark

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Ron

07-25-2004 03:39:14




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 Re: OT: AC Advice in reply to Roger, 07-24-2004 20:58:04  
Take it to an A/C shop. The entire system must be evacuated and the proper oil/refrigerant mix must be added. This takes special equipment.



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brilliant

07-25-2004 13:45:24




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 Re: Re: OT: AC Advice in reply to Ron, 07-25-2004 03:39:14  

thats just what he wanted to hear .



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Even more brilliant

07-25-2004 14:11:20




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 Re: Re: Re: OT: AC Advice in reply to brilliant, 07-25-2004 13:45:24  
And exactly what he needed to know. Without evacuating the entire system, the compressor fail.



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