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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Wire Feed Welder Question

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Farmer steve

07-22-2004 07:26:30




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I know this probably has been asked here before, but I need to ask. I am in the market for a wire feed welder. I would like it to be able to weld auto body fenders and 1/4 in steel. Anything thicker I will use my stick welder. Also I would like to be able to weld some aluminum if possible. Question is do I need a TIG or MIG welder. What amp do I need. I don't want to spend an arm and leg for it.

Thanks guys you are the best. I can always count on good information here.

Steve

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Lynn Kasdorf,Leesburg,VA

07-23-2004 08:04:03




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 Re: Wire Feed Welder Question in reply to Farmer steve, 07-22-2004 07:26:30  
Ok, I'll toss out another option.

First, let me say that I have a very nice 250Amp Millermatic MIG. I'd love to have a spoolgun for aluminum work, but I don't. So, I have never welded AL.

Also, I have had not much luck in using the mig to weld on repair sheet metal on rusted out cars. I'm sure that with more experience it can be done, but man it is hard to keep from blowing through the metal.

For all other welding, I think a MIG is the bee's knees.

Here is an idea to kick around, and one that I am considering. Henrob (formerly Dillon) sells an unusual style oxy-acetylene torch that they claim miraclulous things about. They say that it cuts like a plasma cutter. They say you can weld aluminum like a TIG.

Anyway, the torch kit is $300-$350 depending where you buy it. The concensus seems to be that these are pretty good, but still require a lot of skill.

No affiliation, just something else to consider.

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BFO

07-23-2004 10:38:34




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 Re: Re: Wire Feed Welder Question in reply to Lynn Kasdorf,Leesburg,VA, 07-23-2004 08:04:03  
If you really want to have some fun, throw away the solid wire, get some .045 Lincoln 71M gas shielded flux-core.



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Buck

07-23-2004 08:30:18




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 Re: Re: Wire Feed Welder Question in reply to Lynn Kasdorf,Leesburg,VA, 07-23-2004 08:04:03  
Hi Lynn. If you are having trouble with your Mig welder on rusty material. Buy a small roll of Hobart's 21-B wire. In a lot of ways I like this wire more so than Lincoln's intershield wires. The 21-B was designed to run on galvanized steel. I know they make it in .045 any smaller I'm not sure. Just a thought!



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T_Bone

07-24-2004 13:50:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Wire Feed Welder Question in reply to Buck, 07-23-2004 08:30:18  
Hi Lynn,

I've looked at the Henrod torch a couple times.

If you read thru there Q&A you'll see that I have suggested gas welding with a simular technique many times. I'm sure there torch makes a difference but it also makes me wonder if technique plays a huge part in the process with low gas pressure being another big plus.

Welding over thin rusted material is just a plain bad idea. Why? The welding process doesn't do well with rust consumed with-in the molten weld puddle as it leaves porosity with-in the weld.

If the molten puddle doesn't consume the rust then the rust is left on the backside of the weld thus starting the oxidizing process again.

It would be best to cut out the rust and use new material.

T_Bone

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Buck

07-23-2004 06:12:52




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 Re: Wire Feed Welder Question in reply to Farmer steve, 07-22-2004 07:26:30  
Hi Steve. Another idea to throw at you. The spool guns are nice, but they are big! About 15 years ago I set up my wire feed to run aluminum. I bought the Tweco model 4 gun with the aluminum liner, and the U grooved drive rolls for my feeder. In this case shorter is better, you want as short of a gun as you can buy. Try to hang the feeder in the air some how! You want gravity in your favor, and remember to keep the gun as straight as you can at all times, or you will be cutting the wire at the drive rolls. Remember it takes a lot more heat than you would think to weld aluminum! Bigger is better with welding machines. At the time I did this, a spool gun was around $600.00 the Tweco gun was around $200. drive rolls about $35.00 but this was 15 years ago! I have been out of it for so long, the prices just floor me NOW!

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Ron

07-23-2004 04:13:25




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 Re: Wire Feed Welder Question in reply to Farmer steve, 07-22-2004 07:26:30  
Lincoln makes nice compact 115V MIG welders that handle aluminum. Their website, www.lincolnelectric.com, has correct information on how to weld. Be sure to use exactly the electrode they specify and practice, practice, practice.

www.northerntool.com sells Lincoln at reasonable prices.



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KX

07-23-2004 07:31:43




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 Re: Re: Wire Feed Welder Question in reply to Ron, 07-23-2004 04:13:25  
You use electrodes with your wire welder Ron? Tell us about it. Dude, your equity shrinks more with every post.



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Ron

07-23-2004 08:34:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Wire Feed Welder Question in reply to KX, 07-23-2004 07:31:43  
The wire is an electrode. Apparently everyone on earth knows that except you. You might want to search the 'Net for a copy of "Welding for Dummies".



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KX

07-26-2004 09:27:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Wire Feed Welder Question in reply to Ron, 07-23-2004 08:34:11  
I sure will look for that book. I had welded 19 or 20 years(self taught, exept for HS Ag teacher) before I ever picked up a MIG gun or welded with a MIG welder. Now I have one that I have used once in 2 years. I don't sit around and read books, I guess I just do things and learn that way. While thinking now, sure the wire is the electrode. You got me smart guy. Good for you. I can take it as good as I can give it.

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T_Bone

07-23-2004 01:00:25




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 Re: Wire Feed Welder Question in reply to Farmer steve, 07-22-2004 07:26:30  
Hi Steve,

All my info will apply to 1980 and older as I haven't work on any of the newer cars/trucks to see what metal is being used in todays vechiles. At that only electrode type and cover gas would be effected, not the machine.

I like gas welding auto SM as it also will stress relieve the metal as your welding, as the metal viberates from the wind and road and causes the grain structure to compact. If you don't stress relieve then the metal has a greater chance of cracking where it has been welded. With the correct temperature, Oxy/Acet gas welding is much like Tig welding.

With Mig welding we want a machine with enough amps and duty cycle to weld 1/4" plus material in a "single pass". That puts us into the 230v, 200amp plus class machines.

You can weld thicker metal with Mig by running multiple passes just like you can with any welding process.

To weld AL with Mig you will need a spool gun. A spool gun is a Mig torch with a spool of wire mounted on the torch. Al wire is soft so you need to push it for the shortest distance possible.

Tig welding light gauge SM allows for less distortion and less heat effectd zone (HEZ) than Mig, stick or gas welding processes. HEZ is the area 1" of either side of center line of weldment.

If you have a AC/DC machine then you can buy a Tig torch and flowmeter for using scratch start Tig.

See the link below for "how to" scratch start Tig weld.

T_Bone

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T_Bone

07-24-2004 12:46:39




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 Re: Re: Wire Feed Welder Question in reply to T_Bone, 07-23-2004 01:00:25  
Hi Steve,

After reading Buck's post (great idea), I should have also included that you can gas weld AL very easy.

Repost:

I like using a 75%helium/25%argon gas mix for Mig or Tig welding Alumnium as the arc will alot hotter with helium gas. Although the 75%argon/25%Co2 will work your weld will have prositity included with-in the weld along with alot of AL splatter on the surface.

You can use oxy/act to gas weld AL. You can use AL stick rod with the flux left on or use a scrap piece of AL with a flux made from borax with alcolhol added to make a paste and just dip the filler rod into the flux when needed. If you keep your filler rod with-in the gas flame zone then a flux is not needed. Be sure to remove all flux when done welding as AL will continue to oxidize if the flux is left on.

There is a couple tricks to Gas or Tig welding Al. As your heating the base metal you will notice the weld puddle will start swrilling and that is the correct time to add filler rod and move backwards/forwards. I like moving away from my weld puddle as you can see how much filler rod needs to be added. A split second latter wrinkles appear with-in the weld puddle and if you don't quickly remove the heat or move forawrd then your weld puddle will end up on the floor.

If you Tig weld SS you will also notice this swrilling action of the weld puddle. On SS that means you have just achived 100% penetration of the base metal and if your heat(amps) are set correct then you can hold this weld puddle and let it develope to the maxmium width wanted (1.25 times the thickness the base metal equals the weld puddle width your wanting) until your weld puddle drops to the inside then adding filler rod and moving forward at the same time thus achiving and inside weld puddle the same width as the outside weld puddle. The inside weld bead material is from the base metal dropping thru and you add the filler rod for the build-up of the outside weld bead. Thats how you achieve a weld that looks the same on the inside as it does on the out side.
So if you don't want 100% base metal penetration so it "sugars" the inside, don't let your weld puddle swrill.
Sugar means the inside weld bead oxidizes without using a purge gas usually argon at about 5cuft/min. I explained this process as it can be applied to any weld puddle control therory of any type of base metal and is the best example a welder will have to "see" the "controlled" process in "slow" motion.

You can also use a chill bar clamped to the backside of your weld joint base meterial.
A chill bar is a thick piece of metal, usually 1/2" x 2" wide copper, used to draw the heat thru the base metal but hold the weld puddle from dropping thru and the weld puddle will not stick to the chill bar base metal. On welding AL you can use a piece of "clean" steel, no scalling, SS or CU. On welding Copper a SS chill bar works best. On welding carbon steel a CU, AL or SS chill bar will work.

While welding AL you will notice a black oxide scale appear on the surface and the weld puddle becomes very difficult to control. Stop and remove this black oxide with a new SS wire brush or new grinding wheel. It's very important to use new wheels as if the wheels had beem used on Cu or Fe you can't get rid of the black oxides.

I also like using tri-mix cover gas of 75%helium/24%argon/1%Co2 for my small 115v Mig welder as it allows me to weld a thicker base material for a given Amp setting. I use this tri-mix on every type of welding process Tig, Mig and as a purge gas. I use a Tee after the flow meter with a needle valve to control pruge gas flow. I only need one flow meter and one type of gas that way.

Filler rods also need precleaned with emery paper to remove oxides exspecially while Tig welding. On Fe filler rod, clean filler rod too bear metal as well as clean base metal 1" on either side of the weld joint or it will cause prosisity in the weld.

Pure argon can be used for a cover or purge gas but is very expensive when welding Fe comparred to Co2. On 316 SS a tri-mix needs to be used.

And:

That pictular Tri-mix may be had to get in your area. They say it makes a difference with the 1%Co2 added but I really don't know if it does as I've used 75He/25Ar and it worked just fine and that is a very popular gas mix. There is another tri-mix thats 75He/24Ar/1-O2 that also works well but again I wasn't overly impressed Vs using the 75He/25Ar.

Yes when we spec a cover/purge gas it's done for the base metal as the filler rod will be of base metal composistion. Alot of times on the rear mix metals while Tig welding I would use a scrap piece of base material for a filler rod providing I could shear a thin enough strip for weld joint.

The He gas is like the difference of using Mapp/oxy to using acet/oxy a very noticeable difference. You will not have a problem with welding light gauge metal but will need to use lower amps.

Another trick that I used while Tig welding extreamly lite gauge metal and tried to adjust my amps low enough but could not,(out of the machine amp range) is using a 1/8" x 36" filler rod on the ground clamp. Clamp one end of the filler rod to the bench and let it hang to the floor then attach your ground clamp to the other end. The creates a "dropper resister" with the filler rod taking the amps. Be careful as not too touch the filler rod as it can get "cherry red" depending on how many amps your dropping. This makes a welding machine with a 30 or 40amp low setting down to the 15amp range. You can really fine tune your amps this way as you can still use the machines low amperage control and this will work on any welding machine.

T_Bone

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Mark

07-22-2004 19:27:17




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 Re: Wire Feed Welder Question in reply to Farmer steve, 07-22-2004 07:26:30  
I don't think the 110V machines can handle 1/4" steel. You need to move up to the next level.



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Stu

07-22-2004 11:01:25




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 Re: Wire Feed Welder Question in reply to Farmer steve, 07-22-2004 07:26:30  
Since you have a stick welder for heavy projects a 120 volt 130 amp wire welder would do just fine. Alluminum can be welded with a MIG welder but works better with a spool gun wich prevents the wire form tangleing. TIG is a totally different process. You have a tungstun tip with argon sheilding gas and it is welding with a torch.



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Nick

07-22-2004 20:04:18




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 Re: Re: Wire Feed Welder Question in reply to Stu, 07-22-2004 11:01:25  
One thing you should consider before purchasing a welder is your welding skills. On a scale of 1-5, mig would probably rate a 1 because it fairly easy to learn where tig would rate closer to 4 or 5. Tig welding requires a torch with a tungsten electrode. The welding process is somewhat similar to oxy-acetylene. Welding tig aluminum also requires hi-frequency as well. You will also be able to pick up a mig welder for quite a bit cheaper than a tig machine.

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