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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

diesel tank vs. propane tank

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nwb

07-10-2004 17:36:15




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A few weeks ago someone asked about cutting a propane tank. A few of us advised against it, but to my surprise alot of guys said it was okay with certain precautions. At the bottom of this page someone asks about cutting a diesel tank. It seems most of the posts advise against it. Can someone explain to me why it would be safer to cut a propane tank than a diesel tank? Thanks.




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Kendall

07-14-2004 09:13:38




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 Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to nwb, 07-10-2004 17:36:15  
A friend of mine made a BBQ grill out of a propane tank. He said he filled it with water and cut it with a hack saw with the water still in it. Still, I think its a shaky proposition. Wally World has some pretty nice ready made grills.



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Lee

07-13-2004 19:07:48




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 Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to nwb, 07-10-2004 17:36:15  
A dangerous job any way you look at it. When I was about15 or 16 a guy was cutting end of railcar out for township. never saw person fly so far without wings, and he was xtra crispy but he somehow lived. enough to convince me leave them alone



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nwb

07-12-2004 16:25:19




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 Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to nwb, 07-10-2004 17:36:15  
Thanks for all the posts. I appreciate all the information and entertainment.



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RandyB

07-12-2004 07:18:45




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 Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to nwb, 07-10-2004 17:36:15  
You might want to read the interesting story in the link below



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RusselAZ

07-11-2004 17:33:07




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 Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to nwb, 07-10-2004 17:36:15  
To answer your question I first want to make sure you know what causes the explosion of tanks when someone doesn't do it right.

The explosion is cause by smoke/vapor. Liquid fuels need heat to make them burn and the part that burns in the case of these two products is the vapor. Keep the smoke/vapor out of the tank and you can cut on them safely without an explosion. This can be done with the exhaust of a good vacuum cleaner blowing in one hole and having another hole for the smoke to get out of. The key is to keep smoke/vapor below a concentration needed for ignition. It is pretty easy to do.

Straight answer to your question is that diesel is hard to get out of a tank while propane is not. Contrary to what I read below, propane, or any of the 'ane products do NOT permeate steel. If they did, it would leak out the side all the time.

Where most people make the mistake is they think the smell means there is propane present but propane doesn't smell. A product called Marcaptan is added to the propane at the refinery (as it is to Natural gas at the first pumping station) to make it smell. Remember I said propane was easy to get out of the tank, well it is. When it is gone, it is gone. bye bye. The marcaptan however is a different problem.

Now listen because if you are cutting an OLD 'ane tank, be it propane or butane, the OIL based odorant has to be dealt with. All the propane ever put in the tank was vaporized in order to use it unless it was pulled out with a liquid leg to fill a motor fuel tank. ALL the marcaptan, small amount as it is on each tank fill is still in it. Oily, smokeable and explodeable with enough heat. This "leftover" product is why you may have heard someone say their propane tank is getting low because they can smell gas when cooking (or whatever). It is concentrated in the bottom of the container and the propane picks up a heavier concentration of the smell. An old tank may have several gallons of this oily stuff in it.

The oily stuff, whether it is diesel or this ordorant has to be controlled to cut on the tank. These old tanks seem to make good feed bunks but so do the ones you can buy. I'd really hate to have St Peter ask me why I was there and have to say that I was cutting on an old fuel tank. He may not let me in.

A $250 dollar store bought feed bunk is much cheaper than the damage cost you may inflict on yourself or someone else, cutting open a tank.

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Bus Driver

07-12-2004 17:28:05




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 Re: Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to RusselAZ, 07-11-2004 17:33:07  
I agree with much of what Russel has posted, but the methyl mercaptan is not as persistent in the tank as stated. Leave the tank open to the air for a while (just remove the valve after the pressure is gone) and the methyl mercaptan will outgas quickly. Pressurizing the tank with air and releasing it will get the methyl mercaptan out quickly. When the smell is gone, nothing explosive or combustible remains. If you use the link below, please read completely and carefully.

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Bus Driver

07-12-2004 17:36:06




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 Re: Re: Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to Bus Driver, 07-12-2004 17:28:05  
Typing error in the link. Trying again.



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Tommy D6-8U

07-12-2004 03:05:10




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 Re: Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to RusselAZ, 07-11-2004 17:33:07  
Russell,

My point is exactly what you said in your last sentence.

I've been a firefighter and fire investigator for close to 20 years; I know what causes fires and explosions but it is STILL INSANE to risk cutting any kind of tank. I know pros do it but most people aren't pros.

Tommy



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Tommy D6-8U

07-11-2004 09:07:47




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 Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to nwb, 07-10-2004 17:36:15  
Hello All,

With all the products available for whatever use you require these days at reasonable costs, why in hell would anybody want to cut into a tank that contained flammable/combustible materials and risk losing your life or someone else's doing it. It's insane!!!! If you're that poor that you can't buy a container for what you need, I feel very sorry for you!

Tommy D6-8U



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Ron

07-11-2004 09:47:29




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 Re: Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to Tommy D6-8U, 07-11-2004 09:07:47  
You know, in my experience it's usually some guy who can afford it but has the common sense of a goat.

Some self-styled "solar engineer" here (had $$ and a college degree) deicded to build a solar water heating system for his house. He used an old water heater as a storge tank and decided to remove the pressure relief valve. Yes, you guessed it. The good news was that the whole family was away from the house. The bad news was that when they got home they had no house. The fire marshall found the water heater in the woods 150' away from where the trash pile that was his house once stood.

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leaddog

07-11-2004 08:31:09




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 Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to nwb, 07-10-2004 17:36:15  
How about an anhydrous tank? I have an old 330 gal one that I want to cut up. Thanks
leaddog



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Andy

07-11-2004 22:17:38




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 Re: Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to leaddog, 07-11-2004 08:31:09  
Anhydrous is every bit as flammable as LP. It is labled non-flammable because of politics for farmers to transport and the flammable range is relativly narrow.



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buickanddeere

07-11-2004 05:33:18




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 Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to nwb, 07-10-2004 17:36:15  
If you need a tank to cut open, the junk yards are full of old electric hot water heaters.



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Ron

07-11-2004 07:17:14




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 Re: Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to buickanddeere, 07-11-2004 05:33:18  
Smokin' tundra weed again, ay?

Water heaters are too small to be useful for anything and if you actually knew anything about them you would know they are full of glass, lots of glass.

BTW, there is no such thing as a "hot water heater" as there is no need to heat hot water. The correct term is "water heater".



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Plumber says AMEN!!

07-11-2004 09:09:45




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 Re: Re: Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to Ron, 07-11-2004 07:17:14  
NT



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buickanddeere

07-11-2004 07:38:14




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 Re: Re: Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to Ron, 07-11-2004 07:17:14  
Funny I got got a 60 gallon electric from the dump a month ago and cut into a pair of feed troughs. No glass inside, just fiberglass between the tank and out sheath. You just can't admit defeat can you Ronnie. Check your school grammar books, "hot water heater" does work and is the most common term.



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Ron

07-11-2004 08:24:50




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to buickanddeere, 07-11-2004 07:38:14  
North of the border you guys might not mind scum and rust in your water (heaven knows you have everything else in your water!) but down south here we insist all tanks be glass lined, except for commercial tanks made of stainless steel.

Your 50 year old grammar book is, well, 50 years old. In that time, most of the rest of us have learned something... the term is "water heater".



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Larry E

07-11-2004 19:36:29




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to Ron, 07-11-2004 08:24:50  

Who really cares as long as water comes out hot.



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buickanddeere

07-11-2004 11:26:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to Ron, 07-11-2004 08:24:50  
How is American's in the south want our fresh water for drinking and irrigation? Only thing in this tank was some limestone scale. Check the difference between American, Canadian and British spelling, grammar and definitions. EG chips/fries, couch/chesterfield, cheque/check, bush/woods, dinner/lunch, lorry/truck, boot/trunk etc. Contrary to popular belief south of the border, the entire world does not revolve around the US.

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Ron

07-11-2004 11:50:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: diesel tank vs. propane ta in reply to buickanddeere, 07-11-2004 11:26:13  
You have ADHD. Look it up on the 'Net. That's why you can't focus on a subject and constantly go off-topic. Take your meds and you'll be fine. But take them with water from the USA!



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buickanddeere

07-11-2004 13:41:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: diesel tank vs. propan in reply to Ron, 07-11-2004 11:50:38  
Odd how you were the one who brought up the topic and required clarification. Please keep it coming Ron. You are a source of endless entertainment.



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lee

07-13-2004 18:59:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: diesel tank vs. pr in reply to buickanddeere, 07-11-2004 13:41:59  
NOT ENDLESS you mean MINDLESS



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Ron

07-11-2004 13:59:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: diesel tank vs. pr in reply to buickanddeere, 07-11-2004 13:41:59  
I can spot one of you ADHD types from across the border.



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buickanddeere

07-11-2004 20:26:36




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: diesel tank vs in reply to Ron, 07-11-2004 13:59:09  
How are you such an "expert" with ADHD? You must have been taking your medication.



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Ron

07-11-2004 20:38:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: diesel tan in reply to buickanddeere, 07-11-2004 20:26:36  
Gotcha! Hit a nerve, didn't I? Now go take your meds and play with your AC/DC transformer.



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buickanddeere

07-12-2004 06:26:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: diesel in reply to Ron, 07-11-2004 20:38:59  
Have to wonder why you feel so threatened and keep lashing out is such a rage? Your phobia is getting out of control. How can you claim to be linesman and not understand voltage resistance and current? Or not understand you can't transform steady state DC? And why do you want to over ballast tractors which burns more fuel, causes more wear plus decreases crop yield due to soil compaction?



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Ron

07-12-2004 08:26:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: di in reply to buickanddeere, 07-12-2004 06:26:37  
It's very sad that you don't realize how badly you are embarrassing yourself.



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buickanddeere

07-12-2004 11:59:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re in reply to Ron, 07-12-2004 08:26:05  
Ron, have your ever considered getting professional help for your problems? Most peple can take correction when wrong but you've went right off the deep end. Being proven wrong in the electrical trade you are supposed to know has really bothered you. And agrivated your lashing out at people.



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Ron

07-12-2004 13:12:19




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re in reply to buickanddeere, 07-12-2004 11:59:28  
Even sadder than your embarrassing yourself is that you no doubt have AC/DC transformers in your house and don't know it. They were invented more than 60 years ago and I have about 40 of them in my house. All electric supply houses sell them.

You are obviously some 14 year old script-kiddie with no life beyond posting nonsense and then arguing with those who point it out.

Get a life, young fella! Better yet, get a girl friend!

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buickanddeere

07-12-2004 17:05:50




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re in reply to Ron, 07-12-2004 13:12:19  
The "wall-wart" DC power supplies you are thinking of have two different designs. The oldest design is a current limited class two step down isolation transformer. The low voltage secondary feeds AC to a bridge rectifier to obtain full wave rectification and produce pulsating DC. The DC ripple is then smoothed with a electrolytic capacitor. A slightly different version uses a center taped secondary, two rectification diodes and of course the filter capacitor. On occasion an inductor is used after the rectifier to further smooth the output ripple. The newer, smoother and more efficient DC supply uses a "switching" power supply that uses all solid state components to vary conduction pulse width and polarity to take e.g. 6V DC right off the 120V AC input. You cannot feed a transformer AC and take DC off the secondary. Get it straight before you hurt somebody or yourself.

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Ron

07-12-2004 17:11:29




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re in reply to buickanddeere, 07-12-2004 17:05:50  
Maybe I should have said "get a boy friend"!



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george md

07-12-2004 18:52:03




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re in reply to Ron, 07-12-2004 17:11:29  
Ron, Buick may let his book learning get in the way of common sense about weighting tractor tires,
but he is dead on in the electrical department.
It's been well over 40 years since I studied electricity and electronics , but transformers
have not changed in that time , they do not work
on DC .

george



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Ron

07-14-2004 16:00:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re in reply to george md, 07-12-2004 18:52:03  
Sorry George!

There are AC/AC, AC/DC, and, believe it or not, DC/DC transformers. Any electric supply house has them.

Ron



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george md

07-14-2004 21:43:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re in reply to Ron, 07-14-2004 16:00:34  
Ron, the closest you will get to a transformer on DC
is your ignition coil, and the only reason that it works is that you are pulsing the DC , so that
what comes out the high side is pulsed at the rate
that you points make and break.

george



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buickanddeere

07-14-2004 20:45:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re in reply to Ron, 07-14-2004 16:00:34  
The manufacture, part number and specifications please.



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Davis In SC

07-12-2004 19:05:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re in reply to george md, 07-12-2004 18:52:03  
Ron, I know little about electricity, Just enough to respect it, but Buick/Deere has always seemed have knowledgable answers & always responded to questions in a gentlemanly manner. I come here to relax & learn, life is too short to argue & fuss all the time. Regards, Davis



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John A.

07-10-2004 23:10:57




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 Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to nwb, 07-10-2004 17:36:15  
nwb, I didn't weight in on this discussion the other day. So I will now!.....
THEY ARE NOT!!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!
LP tanks are far more dangerious, LP will impregnate the inner poritions of the tank. And can remain there for many years, even if the tank is opened.(ie taking out the plugs or fill/gauge assembly).
To cut on an old LP tank is risky As Ron said. But I did it on an old LP tand as a first time novice. I was going to cut one end out of this tank so I could make a BBQ pit.
After checking with a number of welders and others who have done this before this was my prcedure for cutting the end out of this tank.
1st...this tank had been opened to the elements for about 3 yrs. Fill/gauge assembly removed.
2nd...I filled and rinced this tank 6 times. It was a 150 gal underground Butane tank. built in the 40s or early 50s.
3rd...on the 7th fill left full of H20. End to be cut was slightly lower than the other. Centered punched a point for a hole to be drilled at the seam of the end cap on tank.
Wrapped a wet cloth around my drill, where I drilled a 1/2 in hole. (now the tank has 2 openings) H20 squirting everywhere. OBTW shove a 1/2 bolt into the hole to help keep the water in while you get rid of the drill, and get your oxy/act torch.
4th...Preheat the area at the bolt in hole.
pull out the bolt.....start cutting. yes H20 is comming out while cutting. rotate tank back after 2or 3in to help keep as much H20 as possible. Keep garden hose running in if you want. After about 1/4 to 1/3 of the diameter is cut the chance of any thing going wrong is all but gone.
Finish cutting the endcap out.
This is and was my proceedure when I did mine! Even after 3 yrs of being open there were little "Thuds" when the torch cut into little area of steel that had more LP impregnated into the steel. But again after I got 1/4 to 1/3 cut that all stopped. Keep the H20 in the tank while cutting. a full tank of H20 can't explode.
First rule on cutting on LP or or any other tank.
Is...Rinse,Rinse,Rinse and then leave full of H20. And keep as much H20 in the tank as possible after you start cutting.
The H20 takes the place of air so the chance of explosion is nill.

Now to the Question of DSL..... ..... ..... .. Diesel will evaporate after a while. Soap and hot H20 will get the lions share of DSL out of the tank. Also a DSL tank is made of thinner steel than an LP tank. After innitial cleaning then rinse 3 to 4 times, Fill once more and drill
you hole, start your cut with a sawzall. following the procedure above.
Hopes this helps.
Later,
John A.

PS... Cutting on any tank is risky at best.

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T_Bone

07-11-2004 05:55:24




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 Re: Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to John A., 07-10-2004 23:10:57  
"PS... Cutting on any tank is risky at best."

John A.,Then why post information that contains ERRORS that can get someone killed???

Think before you type!

T_Bone



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John A.

07-11-2004 11:46:11




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 Re: Re: Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to T_Bone, 07-11-2004 05:55:24  
T_Bone, Pleas elaborate! Either here or Email,I uncovered.
Thanks.
John A.



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Ron

07-10-2004 17:52:45




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 Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to nwb, 07-10-2004 17:36:15  
You're confusing "advice" with facts. The facts are... it is NOT safe for any non-pro to be cutting any tank that has or had anything flammable or explosive in it. Sure, some people do it and get away with it. Others get killed. It's kinda like Russian Roulette.



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T_Bone

07-11-2004 05:51:49




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 Re: Re: diesel tank vs. propane tank in reply to Ron, 07-10-2004 17:52:45  
Hi nwb,

I agree with Ron as

"Repair by internet will get someone killed"

It's just a matter of time!

Look at my post on the diesel tank thread. Here is a guy thats qualified to preform the natural gas work and he most likely made a "mistake" that may have killed his co-worker or leave him as a vegetable.

Just too many things to consider when dealing with fuels that can explode if the conditions are correct.

What several guys here fail to consider when giving advice, is there's alot of youngesters just learning that reads this forum and WILL try anything that is posted.

So then what happens when the person giving the advice makes a small typo error and the newbie follows that advice and gets hurt?

Example: Just read John A. post above with a few errors made.

T_Bone

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