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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

portable boring bar

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MetalZ

03-31-2004 15:05:38




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Hello

Does anyone have knowledge, or a web address to recommend that deals with:

- making a portable boring bar for boring pivot holes on equipment.

- making bushings and pins for same

The problem I have is my backhoe's swing pivot is worn right through the bushing and into the original bore. I want to bore the original hole oversize and then fit an oversize bushing with a new pin.

Thanks in advance for any assistance

MetalZ

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Heat Houser

04-02-2004 18:21:37




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 Re: portable boring bar in reply to MetalZ, 03-31-2004 15:05:38  
To make the bar, purchase a piece of 1 inch cold rolled shaft. Go to a place that sells machine tooling and purchase square shanked cutting bits (for a metal lathe) and a square broach slightly larger than the shank. Drill the shaft in various places with the correct pilot size for the broach. Use an arbor press and shove the broach through the round hole to make a square hole. Use care and do it by hand with the arbor press as you can easily snap the broach.
After you have square holes, drill 90 degrees into the side of the square hole and tap (thread) these holes to use an allen headed set screw to hold the bit in place while boring. To adjust the size of the hole you are boring, give the backside of the bit a tap with a hammer to drive it out of the square hole (don't loosen the set screw) and this will increase the effective diameter.
Purchase two, one inch diameter, self alligning bearings with flanges. Weld some legs to the flanges approx 3 inches long. You will need to have holes in the piece you want to bore to allow the boring bar to pass through. Center the boring bar where you want to bore and tack weld the legs to the piece you are boring. Drive the boring bar with a magnetic based drill. This will both turn the bar and also feed the bit into the work. To clean up an existing bore, make some cones with 1 inch holes, slip them over the bar and use them to get the bar centered and the bearings tacked before you start the process.
good luck

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Clem Davidson - Johannesb

05-13-2004 10:33:43




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 Re: Re: portable boring bar in reply to Heat Houser, 04-02-2004 18:21:37  
Heat Houser, greetings! Being new to this hobby and not having a background in metal machining, I'm confused by one aspect of your comprehensive description of a Portable Boring Bar: I can't visualise the arrangement of the flanged bearings with their legs. Can you possibly create a sketch of the assembly as it is welded to the workpiece?
Many thanks, Clem.



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jim smit

04-02-2004 15:03:42




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 Re: portable boring bar in reply to MetalZ, 03-31-2004 15:05:38  

Here is a # to a company that advertsises The Service, plus kits and finished units traing,and a lease package, Electric, hydraulic, or ,pneumatic. 1-800-979-1131. Got this out of weekly heavy Equip. Trader



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Wayne

04-01-2004 21:18:01




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 Re: portable boring bar in reply to MetalZ, 03-31-2004 15:05:38  
Hey, after reading your response at the end of this thread I thought about something you might want to try. You may have already thought about it yourself, but do a search on the internet for line boring equipment. Most all of the outfits, like Climax, that make this equipment are more than happy to send you literature on their products. If your trying to make something from scratch, I've always found anyway, having the most different ideas on how it should be done is a huge help. I know just about all of them have a different take on how they actually feed the bar/tool through the workpiece. Turning it isn't a problem it's working out the feed that makes it a real challange. Just remember when you do yours, an infinite feed rate for your bar/tool is a mandatory, top priority, #1 thing. Without it your gonna be looking at more dollars spend in replacing tool bits that you'd spend on an actual bar. Too you have to design it so if the too, bit hangs it will either stall the drive or somehow slip the feed to prevent damage to the bar. These are all things that are very important that you don't realize just by looking at a boring setup. Also remember like I said in my other post, it isn't at all like running a lathe, etc, so you aren't gonna be able to hand feed it and get quality results, it has to have a power feed. Too you are gonna need a bar with 3/8 square holes broached in it every so often and drilled and tapped through the side with a setscrew to hold the bits, for the smaller holes, or like I mentioned last night, a holder made to clamp on the bar to carry the tool bits for the larger stuff. All that said, I still have one question though. If you have the skills and knowledge to make a homemade setup, why don't you simply invest the money in a proven "factory" made setup and hire out doing that kind of work. Even to just do your own work and make the complete home made setup is gonna require a pretty sizable investment. By the time you pay for all the materials, design and build a drive/feed head, buy the correct bearings for the bar to ride in (they need to be in a ball type mount as well as on a 4 way adjustable mount) have the bar drilled and broached, buy the tooling, etc etc etc. your still gonna be looking at a large sum of money, unless you have the tooling/machines to do it all yourself... Too if you have as many jobs to do for yourself as you do then think how many other jobs there are out there. Like I said last night, even most big companies don't seem to want to own a portable setup like this because of all that's required to do this kind of work, so there is always gonna be work out there for somebody with the skill, knowledge, and desire to do a good job. Good luck with the boring setup, and if you do get one designed I would love to see pics of it when you get it finished. Somebody did it before, so we know it can be done all it takes is the will, desire, and money to see the project through..... ... Again if you ever need any help with anything feel free to write and ask, I'll help out all I can.

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Bus Driver

04-01-2004 04:22:27




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 Re: portable boring bar in reply to MetalZ, 03-31-2004 15:05:38  
The Caterpiller Tractor dealer in my area has a portable boring bar. I am sure they use it only in their shop. The previous owner of my Bobcat let one of the (4) bushings wear out and ruin the original bore. I cut that housing out with a torch, made a new housing with bore same as the pin, used a long piece of cold rolled rod as an alignment tool from the bushing on the other side, welded the new housing in place, then reamed the new housing for the bushing. It has worked well.

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Slowpoke

04-01-2004 01:41:15




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 Re: portable boring bar in reply to MetalZ, 03-31-2004 15:05:38  
I find frequently that there is not enough material to make an oversize hole without weakening the original part. Murphy's law states that the greatest wear is toward the weakest point.



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Wayne

03-31-2004 21:09:48




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 Re: portable boring bar in reply to MetalZ, 03-31-2004 15:05:38  
Hi, if your looking to rent a machine I know Climax has a rental program. I don't know what kind of rates, etc they have nor not what all is available to be rented, wether it's just a basic setup with you supplying the tooling, etc or wether you can get the whole package from them. Not meaning to question your knowledge, but based on the feel I got from your post do you have the necessary experience to enable you to properly set up and use the equipment if you were able to rent it. Using a portable setup like this is an entirely different ball game than what you normally run into in the typical shop envirnment, but it's not anything an experienced machinist couldn't figure out without alot of problems. If the experience is there then you run into the fact that beyond the a boring bar itself and it's associated power supply/feed head you also have to have the proper tool bits, a cutter head the proper size for the hole your doing to put the bits in, as well as associated bearing mounts for the bar, line up tooling to set the bar up, etc etc etc. To buy just a "starter" setup your talking several thousand dollars just for the head, bar, and a couple support bearings. Then you get into the added cost of tooling, special setups for different jobs and situatuions, etc etc. It's not really something you can just jump into as a one time deal unless you really know what your doing. We do alot of work for the Norfolk Southern track equipment maintenance shop here in town, and even though they already have a huge machine shop facility they leave this kind of work to us. As someone who does line boring as part of my job I would have to suggest that you find somebody locally that already has the equipment and experience to do the job for you. That being said, if your in the Charlotte, NC area I'd be happy to take a look at the job for you and give you an estimate on it. I don't know how it is in other parts of the country but around here your looking in the $84 hr range for labor rates for portable boring work like this, so it is expensive, but you get what you pay for. As far as making an oversized bushing, that shouldn't be a problem. In fact doing it that way saves alot of time doing the line boring because it allows you to simply bore the existing hole instead of having to try to build it back up and go back to factory specs. Your problem is most likely gonna be finding an outfit that is able to both bore the hole and make the bushing. The OEM/dealership guys are typically gonna want to go the weld up and make standard route because it pays them more and "reduces their liability" on the job by going back with everything to factory spec. Your best bet would be to find an independent to do the work for you over the OEM guys, but make sure if you go that route that you check thenm out before letting him touch the machine. There are several outfits in our area that do the work, but we've either been behind and seen their work, or heard through the grape vine wind that they either screwing up a job or took 3 times longer to do it than it should (and gave the cuatomer an outrageous bill as a rsult) because they don't know what they're doing. Good luck with whatever you do. If you do decide to try it yourself and need any advise/help feel free to ask and I'll be happy to help as much as is possible. Wayne

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Ray,IN

03-31-2004 19:41:39




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 Re: portable boring bar in reply to MetalZ, 03-31-2004 15:05:38  
Have you considered the portable boring machine used to rebore engine cylinders in-frame? They were frequently used in the 50's - 70's.



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redrock

03-31-2004 19:33:18




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 Re: portable boring bar in reply to MetalZ, 03-31-2004 15:05:38  
There are companies that specialize in that kind of repair work. Check with your local heavy/industrial dealership. These guys have a mobile truck that have all the necessary tooling available. If you want to do it yourself, the cost of tooling for a one time repair is pretty expensive.



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Steve

03-31-2004 15:32:16




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 Re: portable boring bar in reply to MetalZ, 03-31-2004 15:05:38  
MetalZ We had a problem on a machine at work that needed saddle bushings installed and was to large to set up on a mill. We had good uck with a large magnetic drill with a homemade boring bar and guide bushings. If you make the boring bar right you can bore the first one by eye, bush it and use it as a guide for the mate. The worst thing is the cost of the drill ($$$$) if you cannot rent one. steve

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MetalZ

04-01-2004 11:20:22




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 Re: Re: portable boring bar in reply to Steve, 03-31-2004 15:32:16  
Thank you to everyone who has responded thus far, and to those who will respond in the future. My intention is to make a portable line boring tool from scratch. I was curious if someone had come up with something I had not thought of. I need the boring bar for not only repairing the swing pivot of a backhoe, but also to line bore the "bucket ears" of three buckets I am making (from scratch) for the same machine. I mention this because hiring the job out would not be economically viable (not to mention, building stuff is fun). When completed, I could send a picture of the completed bar to anyone who asks. Still looking for more info. on portable boring bar and pin/bushing material.

Thank you again

MetalZ

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MtalZ

04-01-2004 23:38:11




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 Re: Re: Re: portable boring bar in reply to MetalZ, 04-01-2004 11:20:22  
Dear Wayne

Thank you again for the input. As you pointed out, rigidity is key in any boring operation. Therefore, I intend to build my line borer for maximum rigidity for a given hole size, or narrow range of hole sizes. That is, I would much rather have a range of boring bar diameters that closely match the hole to be bored, so that the tool has: minimal overhang, maximum support and maximum rigidity. Keeping in mind that the hole one is trying to bore is far from round in the first place, these factors are extremely important to good tool life, depth of cut and surface finish.

With regards to a removeable, clamp-on holder for the purpose of securing the tool bit in larger diameter holes, the inside diameter of it might be on the order of 2.5" to 3". I mention this to give you an idea of the scale I am thinking of. With the 3" bar, I would feel comfortable boring a 6" to 8" hole, depending upon the out-of-round condition of the hole.

I will fit this mechanism with both hand feed and variable power feed, perhaps with limit switches for unsupervised use or as a safety back-up (*NOT recommended, but long holes are unpleasant and girls are distracting*). As you suggest, power feed is the best in an application such as this.

For everyone following along, the tool bit could be H.S.S. (High Speed Steel) if the steel you are boring is on the softer side, but carbide bits would be prefered if they are of the type that can tolerate interupted cuts.

I realize that a set of boring bars from say 1" to approximately 3" and possibly larger is cumbersome, but it would make for an effective tool for most jobs encountered.

I welcome any further suggestions you are willing to make, and I will certainly pass along some pictures. One may even show it all nested in a wooden box just for the hell of it.

Thanks again

MetalZ

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Wayne

04-02-2004 22:44:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: portable boring bar in reply to MtalZ, 04-01-2004 23:38:11  
Hey again. Your right, long holes and girls are distracting....having done it for awhile I can safetly say there I'm well versed in why it's called "boring" work..... Man, going with 3", your talking about a huge bar. The Climax setup I run only uses a 1-1/4 inch bar and I can easily do holes out to 6 or 8 inches with no problem, and Dad has done holes in the 12 inch range boring the top hole in the scraper neck on a 260 Fiat scraper. The biggest thing is how and where you support the bar as well as the depth of cut. If you can support it at close intervals you can take a heavier cut than if you have to put the bearings further apart. We've been running this same setup for close to 10 years now doing mostly heavy equipment repair type jobs and I don't remember but a few jobs we've had to turn down due to too large of a hole. I know one of those was about a year ago and was on a huge jaw crusher and the holes were like 20"OD and about 12' apart. Going by experience I think we'd have had to have had at least a 3" inch bar to have done that right. As for bit support going with a bit in the bar is OK, and your right about having as little of the shank of the bit out as possible but using a clamp on head has a couple huge advantages. First you can put it anywhere on the bar you want. I don't care how many holes you broach you'll eventually run up on a job where none of them are in the right place. The second thing is trying to set the bit out to get that extra .002 you need to finish the hole is almost impossible to do and can be very time consuming if the bit wants to crawl when you tighten the setscrew. It' reallynhard to feel .001 on the tip of the bit but using a split head all you have to do is loosen the head and slip a piece of .001 shim stock under the side holding the bit and instantly your set up to take another .002 out of the hole. lastly it allows you to use a smaller, lighter weight bar and bearing setup to easily do larger holes, and sometimes, due to where the holes are located on equipment, you need that advantage. Your right about using tool steel bits as much as possible due to the interupted cuts normally involved with this type of work due to out of round holes. Don't forget though that not every hole is gonna be able to be bored and bushed, some are gonna have to be welded up and then bored. In a case like that insure you can set your bearing mount plates up, with the bearings mounted and bar in place, to get your initial alignment on the bar. Then your gonna have to be able to remove the bearing, leaving the mounting plate, weld up the hole, and remount the bearing in the same place when your done to finish the hole. If you try to build the hole first you loose anything you might have had left indicating the origional hole placement. I've been behing a few customers over the years that built up a hole and then called, and it can be a real nightmare. Talking about an interrupted cut, that's when you get it is with the build up weld, and I don't care who does it or how qualified/certified they are. The you also have to worry about did the weld draw any oil out and make hard spots, etc etc etc. I don't care how clean you get a bore, or how hot you get it with the torch to preheat and burn it out, this kind of thing happens all the time. Then you get bores where a bearing has desintegrated and pushed bearing material into the parent metal and even carbide won't cut that hard spot so you wind up pulling the bar out and hitting that spot with a grinder so you can start boring again. But it's all in a days work and if it were all that simple it wouldn't be nearly as much fun.... Again good luck, and I look forward to seeing your final product. If you can come up with an affordable bore welding machine let me know, I'd definately be interested in that.... Wayne

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MetalZ

04-05-2004 07:52:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: portable boring bar in reply to Wayne, 04-02-2004 22:44:55  
Hi there

First I would like to say that anyone creating computer viruses is a freak peckerwood that probably never had a girlfriend, and probably never will. They should dig a hole and die in it. Sorry everyone, I'm just venting, I wanted to post sooner.

Anyway, Wayne, you make a good point about the need for a 3" bar. Total overkill for what I need. I try to foresee every conceivable use to which something I make will be put. Further, I try to overbuild whenever possible to withstand the odd time you have to go beyond the design envelope to get the desired result. Lets put it this way, what would you think would be the most complete lineboring set-up? I am not saying I would build it all, but I want to see the big picture. I might make these sets for sale or take on outside jobs or just make a deluxe set and look at it, but I don't want to start this project until I have a vague idea of where it might end. Think of it like you are writing to Santa.

As far as the machinery to build this stuff with, lets put it this way, my 6 year old son has his own metal lathe. I bought my first one when I was 18 and I'm exactly double that now.

Also, what are your thoughts on material for making the bushings and pins from? Any experience with different hardening techniques? I will take the finished parts to an experience heat treating shop for hardening.

Thanks again, I am starting to feel bad, maybe I should send you some Band-Aids for your finger tips.

Regards

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