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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

preheating water for electric water heater

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naz

03-25-2004 02:55:41




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Has anyone set up a kitchen wood range with water jacket to preheat water going into an electric hot water tank.I am going to install a wood range and thought I could run a direct line from my water pump through the stove and into the water heater.The pump and water heater are below where the stove is going.The pump pressure max.50psi,would that be to much pressure running through the stove?I see the stoves with hot water tank have a 15psi relief valve,don't know if stove plumbing can handle any more than that.
Any thoughts would be appreciated,
naz

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Ron

03-27-2004 10:27:02




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 Re: preheating water for electric water heater in reply to naz, 03-25-2004 02:55:41  
Been there - done that!
The idea is excellent, but the application you described is dangerous. When no water is being used, the contents of the pipe will superheat, expand and cause grief. I have done this,with an additional tank near the stove. The bottom of the tank should be nearly at the level if the coils. Cold water is supplied to the bottom of the tank. Water exiting the tank at the top, will supply the regular water heater. A loop is connected to the side if the tank, from at or near the bottom, thru the coil, and to the top, or near the top of the tank. Heated water in the coil will rise and circulate the water to heat the tank contents. The top pipes should be continuous slope up to the tank, so it would not be possible to have an airlock.

A possible problem with this can arise in power failure, no water moving or being used, the temperature will continue to increase, with no way to dump excess. If you are on Municipal water, not likely a problem, but be sure to have a generator availible if you are pumping your own!

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Thanks everyone

03-27-2004 09:23:31




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 Re: preheating water for electric water heater in reply to naz, 03-25-2004 02:55:41  
I appreciate all help with this.I had a general idea of the system and can take time to get it right (I'm renovating to live in)I knew I would get tryed true methods here.Be a little while before I get the stove and gear for it.Safty first.Thanks again naz



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wdTom

03-25-2004 18:36:21




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 Re: preheating water for electric water heater in reply to naz, 03-25-2004 02:55:41  
My water heater is on the second floor above my wood stove. A pair of lines come down from the water heater, one from a point at the top and the other teed of the inlet. Cold water comes in at the bottom or out of the tank at the bottom and flows down to my stove where a line goes along each side, turns 180 degrees and goes back along the side to the back and then up to the line at or near the top of the water heater. It thermosiphons when the stove is running and does nothing when the stove is cold. You could use it as a preheater for another tank. I have thought of doing this for summer when my stove is not running, using solar to preheat for the elec. water heater. A well insulated water heater will not use much energy to maintain it's temperature, it uses most of the energy to heat cold water. Put at least 6" of fiberglass around it, no matter how good it is supposed to be. Oh, I don't use any elec. to heat water with for 6 months of the year, wood stove does it all. If you want it to thermosiphon do not have any high or low spots that can trap an air bubble, this will stop the very low pressure developed by the thermosiphon. This means no coils. A back and forth pattern for the "coil" not a coil shape will work.

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G.King

03-25-2004 12:49:50




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 Re: preheating water for electric water heater in reply to naz, 03-25-2004 02:55:41  
If you can come off the stove and go up some you can get hot water to go down into cellar.then thru a heat exchanger made out of 3/4"and 1" copper pipe then into a holding tank, stove loop would have about 10# pressure on it.Send me your E-Mail address and i will send you a diagram Geo.



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naz

03-25-2004 16:25:36




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 Re: Re: preheating water for electric water heater in reply to G.King, 03-25-2004 12:49:50  
Pumps a submersible and I believe 10gal.fib-glas pressure tank and h/w heater is in the basement directly under where the stove is going.(I haven't got the stove yet)Tank pressure cuts out at 50psi.Diagram would be great G.K.Just trying to get a visual of the setup.



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buickanddeere

03-25-2004 15:28:29




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 Re: Re: preheating water for electric water heater in reply to G.King, 03-25-2004 12:49:50  
Convection won't work to take heat down. What kind of pump and controls?



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G.King

03-25-2004 16:17:57




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 Re: Re: Re: preheating water for electric water he in reply to buickanddeere, 03-25-2004 15:28:29  
IT has to go up first the higher the better, the cooler the air you can put it in, the better it will work, The water will cool and drop down the down pipe at the bottom it will be cooler but still have a lot of heat ,take that heat out with the heat exchanger,it will drop faster and , and be ready to go back up,



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buickanddeere

03-26-2004 05:10:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: preheating water for electric wate in reply to G.King, 03-25-2004 16:17:57  
I don't see how the hot water is going to drop to the basement and the cool water rise without a pump.



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G.King

03-26-2004 09:46:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: preheating water for electric in reply to buickanddeere , 03-26-2004 05:10:34  
The hot water coming out of stove will go up.WHERE DOES THE WATER COME FROM TO REPLACE THAT WATER????? ???----- --from below stove.at the top that water will cool and start dropping ,it will not go down the pipe hot water is coming up. it will go down the down pipe. The bigger diference in temperatures you can get the better it will work.----- ----- ----- ----- In the 1970,s with the first oil shortage a lot of systems to replace oil with wood heat was tried here in Maine,one of the big problems was to get hot water to go into top of electric water heaters. what was done was to get water to cool down some then it would go down into heater being replaced by hotter water.

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buickanddeere

03-28-2004 12:15:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: preheating water for elect in reply to G.King, 03-26-2004 09:46:47  
Thermal losses would be very high. Why not get one of those wee pumps used in radiant floor heating systems?



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naz

03-28-2004 13:11:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: preheating water for e in reply to buickanddeere, 03-28-2004 12:15:21  
Yes I'm going to look at all possible methods.I found some good sites on closed loop systems,solar applications.Similar setup, looks workable!



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naz

03-26-2004 07:26:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: preheating water for electric in reply to buickanddeere , 03-26-2004 05:10:34  
Is it possible to run it above the stove into the attic and back down the other side of the stove to the basement.I have basement,mainfloor(stove) then attic(crawl space)



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T_Bone

03-26-2004 20:03:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: preheating water for elect in reply to naz, 03-26-2004 07:26:18  
Hi Naz,

The second law of thermodymanics states;
"heat flows from a higher source to a colder source".

Read what function an expansion tank preforms in a closed loop piping system. Very important to have "all" safety controls in place on a closed loop hydronic heating system.

T_Bone



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buickanddeere

03-25-2004 11:15:54




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 Re: preheating water for electric water heater in reply to naz, 03-25-2004 02:55:41  
Hook the heating loop up so convection will circulate cool water from the tank into the stove and up out of the stove into the tank. Most operate ok without even using a check valve. The water heater relief valve should protect. If on municiple water over pressure will be forced back into the town system.



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Bob

03-25-2004 10:11:22




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 Re: preheating water for electric water heater in reply to naz, 03-25-2004 02:55:41  
Wrap a coil of copper tubing around the stove, and run the old water through the coil on it's way to the water heater. That way, you won't have a pressurized tank of hot water at the stove, and will still gain a lot of BTU's, if you have a good length of copper tube next to the stove. Under the worst-case, unforseen overheating condition, a copper coil, while it could burst and release steam, would not be capable of the large explosion a bursting tank could produce. The safety valve at the water heater would relieve any excess pressure in the system (which is unlikely). Make sure the safety valve is in working order. If it is getting up in age, replace it, just to be safe.

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TimV

03-25-2004 07:14:40




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 Re: preheating water for electric water heater in reply to naz, 03-25-2004 02:55:41  
Naz: You can certainly do it, but BE CAREFUL! An improperly-designed system can be deadly. A good friend's wife was nearly killed when his system exploded. She was sleeping on the couch, and shrapnel from the blast ripped through the end of the couch, but with sufficiently diminished force to only cut her face slightly. Had she been setting up, she would have probably died, as the wall opposite her had metal fragments driven completely through the 1" knotty pine paneling. My friend is a maintenance engineer for a large boiler company, and is far brighter than average, but a simple design flaw (a restricted elbow that allowed scale buildup and then excessive pressure buildup) nearly ended tragically. If you're going to do this (and it's an excellent idea if designed properly), run your system at mimimal pressure, and install pressure relief valves wherever there is a danger of excessive buildup.

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cooker308

03-25-2004 04:48:53




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 Re: preheating water for electric water heater in reply to naz, 03-25-2004 02:55:41  
I have been doing this for 14 years, works great.I have no pressure relief on my stove system, I have always been careful when the tank off the stove getts quite hot ,I bleed some hot off. Always been thinking of going solar preheat for the summer months when the stove is not in use.



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John *.?-!.* cub owner

03-25-2004 06:36:15




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 Re: Re: preheating water for electric water heater in reply to cooker308, 03-25-2004 04:48:53  
My father set a tank out side his house, where the sun would hit it. He painted it dark green, and in the summer the cold water passed through it before going to the gas hot water heater. Really cut down on the aount of gas he used in the summer.



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