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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Electical question

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Mark

03-18-2004 16:25:14




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Hello, I would like to run underground power about 400' from a meter so I can use a small 220 air compressor, small 220 Mig welder, and other 110 stuff like a light or two, radio etc. My thoughs are 2 # 6 wires, use one of them for 110, and also run a # 8 for netral, and a # 8 for ground. Will this work? Can I go to a # 10 for netral and/ground? Thanks.




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joe

03-20-2004 08:46:25




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 Re: Electical question in reply to Mark, 03-18-2004 16:25:14  
400 feet is a long run for a sub panel fed off a 100 amp service....sounds like you need a seperate meter with a 100 amp service..what ever you do in terms of a sub panel...run 4 conductors..ground and neutral should be isolated in the sub panel with the neutral bar isolated from the grounded panel and the ground wire bonded to the panel....i would run nothing less than # 2 AL..backed up by a 60 amp breaker in the main panel...but have fun getting that #2 under the 60 amp breaker...also if you use Al be sure you use the deox compound required for Al connections...good luck...dont forget the ground rods...8 footers no closer than 6 feet to each other and no further than 25 feet from the sub panel

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Bus Driver

03-19-2004 04:37:37




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 Re: Electical question in reply to Mark, 03-18-2004 16:25:14  
RayIN has touched on a very important consideration for this installation. 400' is a very long run. Voltage drop must be carefully considered in the design of the system. Voltage drop could be considerable for this distance. The conductors in an electrical system carry the load, just as the beams under a bridge carry the load. One would never just take a guess about the size beam to support a bridge, but folks just guess about the wire sizes needed all the time. Be sure to do all the math on this one.

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MarkB

03-19-2004 03:49:47




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 Re: Electical question in reply to Mark, 03-18-2004 16:25:14  
For my shop I ran single conductor #2 aluminum direct burial. (4 lines: two hot, neutral and ground.) I think you'll find that cheaper than running #6 copper in conduit, and it should be good for 100 amp service.

If you're going to do yourself, get some advice from an electrician or building inspector. There are many different ways to do this, and most of them are wrong.



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buickanddeere

03-19-2004 08:00:57




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 Re: Re: Electical question in reply to MarkB, 03-19-2004 03:49:47  
#2 aluminium is way too small for a 400' run to a 100amp panel. It's about right for a 30amp panel. Must be different rules here. They don't like the neutral and ground bonded together except at the transformer pole and the distribution panel. Too many problems with panel ground getting raised above true earth potential due to voltage drop on the neutral. One solution would be stepping up the volatge for transmission with a 240 to 600 transformer and back down to 120/240 at the remote service. Pays when distances are far enough apart.

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MarkB

03-19-2004 17:19:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Electical question in reply to buickanddeere , 03-19-2004 08:00:57  
You're right. I shouldn't have said 100 amps. That 's what I have, but my run is much shorter.

My neutral and ground are NOT tied together except at the main service disconnect (at the meter.) The ground and neutral are separated at the outbuilding. There are ground rods both at the service disconnect and at the outbuilding. That's what the inspector insisted on.

Everybody is supposed to be using the same rules (the NEC), but apparently it's not interpreted the same by all inspectors.

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CNKS

03-18-2004 18:28:41




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 Re: Electical question in reply to Mark, 03-18-2004 16:25:14  
Call your city/county inspector -- they will tell you what you have to do and will inspect it afterward in case any changes need to be made. I have done this for both electrical and gas to my shop, maybe 250-300 feet. Some inspectors are a little picky, but it's no big problem, and at least you know it will be right.



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buickanddeere

03-18-2004 17:13:37




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 Re: Electical question in reply to Mark, 03-18-2004 16:25:14  
How many amps? The ground at the remote panel depending on the state. Likely will be from a couple of 10" ground rods or the equivalent tied to the panel ground lug. I buried a 50' #6 bare copper in the trench fom my shed. The neutral bond to panel must be opened at the remote panel. How deep will the trench be and the type of traffic over it? #6 copper should run 120/240v loads with 3% drop with a 30 amp panel in the remote shop. Starting compressors out there will be tough, check the "code" on the side of the motor. If memory serves, the closer to "A" rather than "Z" have less strting current.

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John - NY

03-19-2004 20:14:12




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 Re: Re: Electical question in reply to buickanddeere, 03-18-2004 17:13:37  
Check out this website. It should help answer your question.
http://www.stanselectric.com/vdrop.html



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Gary Schafer

03-18-2004 17:52:07




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 Re: Re: Electical question in reply to buickanddeere, 03-18-2004 17:13:37  
You should run the wires from a breaker in your main panel out to the remote building. Also install a panel at the remote building. The remote building entrance should be built just like the main entrance panel to your house.

According to NEC if the remote building is not attached or part of the main building where the main panel is you should NOT run a ground out to the remote building.

Run only 3 wires. 2 hot and neutral to the remote building.

In the remote building you must supply its own ground rods connected to the remote panel. Also the neutral IS to be connected to ground in the remote panel.

If the remote (sub panel) is in the same building as the main panel THEN you would run the main ground lead to it and NOT connect the neutral to the ground lead in the remote panel.

Regards
Gary

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LesWV

03-18-2004 20:32:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Electical question in reply to Gary Schafer, 03-18-2004 17:52:07  
Need to get it done before the 2005 NEC codes are printed and put into force.

Check your yellow pages for an Electrical Contractor. Most will give a free estimates.

Stay with them and ask questions. By the time that they leave. You should have a good list of what you will need to do the job right. Especially if you ask for a detailed supplies list of everything need.wink, wink ..



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paul

03-18-2004 22:41:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Electical question in reply to LesWV, 03-18-2004 20:32:16  
What happens in 2005????

--->Paul



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LesWV

03-19-2004 08:08:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Electical question in reply to paul, 03-18-2004 22:41:55  
Paul
New NEC codes take effect in 2005. Alot of places are already taking prepaid orders for the books.

The contractors here thinks that such such things as out building wiring will get much stricter. They already know that some of the wire (types and sizes) they are allowed to use now will no longer be up to code when the new codes take effect.



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Mark

03-18-2004 19:28:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Electical question in reply to Gary Schafer, 03-18-2004 17:52:07  
I will be putting the wire in PVC underground through a pasture. I have a pad that I cut in where I split firewood and mill lumber, no shop or barn there. Just gonna have a couple of outside boxes with plugs. Any advantage to go with alumunim wire? I know you loose, but #4 is much cheaper than #6 copper and they are about equal in rating. Thanks again.



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paul

03-18-2004 20:02:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Electical question in reply to Mark, 03-18-2004 19:28:47  
I'm not sure about Gary's advise. I thought the newest code prefers running 4 wires all over these days. I believe if the buildings are connected by water lines they are considered 'one building' & you need to sub-panel. But i'm guessing, & doesn't appy to you.

Anyhow, I think you might get away with #6, but you will have a large line-loss & will be very hard on the bigger motors you are trying to run. While it costs more, for that distance I'd think about going up a size. Hate to get done & find out your air compressor won't fire up due to line-loss.

--->Paul

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Ray,IN

03-18-2004 22:32:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Electical question in reply to paul, 03-18-2004 20:02:07  
You must know what amperage you need at the terminal end of the run, but this will identify what size wire is required.



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