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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Insulating slab , radiant heating , floor strength

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eeleater

03-05-2004 09:55:28




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I am planning to put up a shop/garage (metal building, insulated with reflective insulation and 3 or 4 in of fiberglass batting) and have been reading about radiant floor heating. I do not plan to heat the building at this time, but would like that option in the future. I also want a sound concrete slab, in case I get a good deal on larger (for me) machinery (mill ?shaper ?planer)- perhaps up to #6000 or #8000.

I understand how the radiant tubing does not affect the strength of the floor if installed on the neutral axis, and the need for it to be deep enough it does not get drilled into. In reading about the radiant heating of a slab I see many references to insulating the perimeter of the slab with 2 in rigid foam. It seems to me this would make it impossible to get any good support for the slab along the sides.

I have thought about making the foundation with insulated concrete forms. I believe this would help, as the path for heat loss would be down to the depth of the footing.

Is there a standard practice for insulating radiant floor heating and floor loads in this range?

What have others done?

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MarkB

03-07-2004 04:39:01




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 Re: Insulating slab , radiant heating , floor stre in reply to eeleater, 03-05-2004 09:55:28  
Eel-eater, I had the same questions when I poured my floor. I did a fair amount of research, and here's what I came up with. Unfortunately, my floor hasn't seen much use, so I can only speculate on how well it's going to hold up.

First, you need to use insulation rated at 25 psi compressive strength minimum (the Home Depot stuff is only 15 psi). Higher strength insulation is available, but is probably special order and not worth the expense unless you plan to have really heavy loads (e.g. big crawler tractors). You should use at least two inches under the outer 2 to 4 feet of the slab, one inch will be sufficient for the interior of the slab.

It is very important to insulate the vertical edges of the slab, this is where much of the heat loss will be. Use at least 2 inch insulation; you can cut the insulation at a 45 degree angle so the concrete will taper toward the outer edge. A Skil saw or table saw works good for ripping the insulation, by the way.

An alternative to insulating under the slap is to only insulate the vertical edges. So if you need a 2' ratwall (required by many codes), use 2 inch insulation inside the ratwall form. You can eliminate the insulation under the slab, which will save money and should result in a stronger floor. You sholdn't go this way if your ground is real wet.

I went with 3500 psi concrete. I think this is about the minimum anyone should use for a shop floor. Obviously, either rebar or steel mesh is required. I used mesh, but it's so much aggravation I would be tempted to use rebar in the future. Since I poured my slab in sections, I tied the sections together with short pieces of 1/2" rebar.

I got my PEX tubing from Mountain View Supply (www.mvsupply.biz). They included a real good manual from Vanguard Pipe titled "Design and Installation Manual. You should be able to get a copy from MV Supply or directly from Vanguard (www.vanguardpipe.com).

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JMS/MN

03-06-2004 10:44:57




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 Re: Insulating slab , radiant heating , floor stre in reply to eeleater, 03-05-2004 09:55:28  
When I put floor heat in our house basement, I used 2" styrofoam with cattle panel above to anchor the tubing to. Panels had wires on 6" spacing. Tubing was on a 12" spacing. Took pictures of it. Plumbing pipes were already in. The pix are a good reference for when I need to anchor anything into the floor, and the 12 inch grid is easy to follow.



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Jared in VT

03-06-2004 07:27:29




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 Re: Insulating slab , radiant heating , floor stre in reply to eeleater, 03-05-2004 09:55:28  
eeleater, Interesting handle. American soldiers have a simular one for French Commando's. Their field ration includes cured eel's, which they comsume with their Opel pocket knives. Anyway, sounds like you're on the right track. You'll get lots of good advise here. But you are asking good questions. Completeing lots of your own reasearch is time well spent, before you spend your time and money. Taunton Press has published; "Foundations and Concrete Work." It's a compendium of articles from Fine Homebuilding magazine. An article by George Nash describles in detail, (with photos and drawings) installing an insulated slab with an integral radiant heating installation. The book has a wealth of information on site layout, insulated forms even wood foundations. Radiant heating installations are complex and expensive. Good luck and have fun! Jared

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eeleater

03-06-2004 16:59:15




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 Re: Re: Insulating slab , radiant heating , floor in reply to Jared in VT, 03-06-2004 07:27:29  
No military connection to the handle. Just tried to think of something unique, easy to spell, and easy to remember.

I have that book, and it is a good one. My concern was for the higher loads I hope to someday have on the floor. I looked up the article again, and noted the insulation laterally out from the wall. I will consider this also.

Lots of good suggestions on this site.
Thanks for everyones answers.

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51 Pony

03-06-2004 04:05:20




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 Re: Insulating slab , radiant heating , floor stre in reply to eeleater, 03-05-2004 09:55:28  
Pound down the gravel inside the foundations walls good and hard, then place 2" pink board (polystyrene) flat over all of it. You need this insualtion to keep the warm slab heat from flowing towards the cooler earth. Yes, heat will flow down, it's that temperature difference! Place concrete mesh on chairs (little stands) on top of this. Tie wrap the PEX tubing to the mesh. Structural engineers will tell you that the mesh isn't needed if the concrete you're using is fiber reinforced, but you need the mesh to tie off the tubing. Put the tubing under air test, and make sure there are no leaks, then place at least 5" concrete without taking the pressure off the tubing. PEX is a special plastic that has an oxygen barrier. It's really quite stiff. WIRSBO is the only manufacturer that I can think of at the moment. I'm a design engineer and have been specifying this for several years without difficulties. It sounds like you might consider glycol in these tubes. With a power failure to freeze water, all this work would be wasted. Good luck!

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Rick

03-06-2004 09:28:01




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 Re: Re: Insulating slab , radiant heating , floor in reply to 51 Pony, 03-06-2004 04:05:20  
Instead of glycol, how about winter grade winsdhield washer fluid? It stays fluid down to -40, is about 7X less less expensive than glycol, and perhaps most importantly, is way less toxic.

As I understand it, the biggest benefit of glycol formulations is their ability to operate in a pressurized cooling system. This is not required in a slab heating system. No pressure caps here LOL!

Just filled up the windshield washer tank on my car, so I thought of this.

Rick

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eeleater

03-06-2004 05:26:55




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 Re: Re: Insulating slab , radiant heating , floor in reply to 51 Pony, 03-06-2004 04:05:20  
Thanks for your reply.

It seems like the polystyrene would be crushed into the gravel when a concentrated weight was placed on the concrete, leading to cracks in the concrete. Keep in mind the weight of most machine tools is on a relativly small area, not sprad out like with a vehicle. Does the concrete spread out the weight that well? Or conversly, is the polystyrene more crush resistant than it seems?

I was planning to use Rebar instead of mesh, and also planning to use glycol.

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51 Pony

03-06-2004 06:49:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Insulating slab , radiant heating , fl in reply to eeleater, 03-06-2004 05:26:55  
The pink board doesn't crush as I know it. The weight of the concrete is spread enough, and concrete is 60% self supporting according to the structural engineers that I work with. I've designed several buildings like this, one recently that is a major bus maintenance facility for a school district. That has lots of vehicles and machine tools, toolboxes etc. They do need to be cafeful where they drill in however. The tubing will be placed along the perimeter of the building where the heat loss is located. When you aly the tubing, make a diagram as to where it's located and try to steer clear with future drill-ins.

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Slowpoke

03-05-2004 23:54:09




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 Re: Insulating slab , radiant heating , floor stre in reply to eeleater, 03-05-2004 09:55:28  
I think the reference to the perimeter of the slab means the footing, which is poured in one piece with the slab. My building will have a 12" x 12" footing with a 6" slab on top, all poured at the same time. So the concrete will be 18" deep around the perimeter. But, the slab is 6" above grade, so I can only insulate 12" below grade.



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eeleater

03-06-2004 05:33:57




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 Re: Re: Insulating slab , radiant heating , floor in reply to Slowpoke, 03-05-2004 23:54:09  
From the diagrams I have seen both insulating the foundation perimeter walls and under the slab are recommended. Where I am at the "code" specifed the bottom of the footings be at least 30 inches deep, and the minimum footing width is 16 inches. I will be dealing with a lot of clay, so will probably go with 20 inch footings.



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Slowpoke

03-06-2004 12:17:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Insulating slab , radiant heating , fl in reply to eeleater, 03-06-2004 05:33:57  
Foundation engineers have charts and maps of soil stability for the area in which they are designing foundations. Unless there is something special which requires on site testing, they go by the map. Almost all areas have soil maps. If your plans are code, it should be ok as is.
I don't have frozen ground to worry about so my footing isn't too deep. At $80 cu yd, that extra width you want could cost substantialy more. Just adding one inch to my slab thickness would add another 10+ yards for about $900.

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