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Wiring a garage/shed

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victor

08-27-2000 22:03:00




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HI, can I run a #6 4 wire from my main panel using a 60 amp fuse to my shed and have a small breaker panel there and just use the 100amp main that it comes with? Any tips I can get? Thanks very much, Victor Goldwell




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gordon williams

03-22-2002 10:37:10




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 Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to victor, 08-27-2000 22:03:00  
Yes i would like help in re-wiring my garage. right now it is a mess. I really need to start over.What about a separate system. I use a lot of wood working tools. I would like to have about 8 outlets, plus I have an electric door opener to install



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Victor

08-29-2000 20:30:58




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 Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to victor, 08-27-2000 22:03:00  
HI, I just want to thank all of you who took the time to help me. Your advice cleared up all of my questions and gave me new fantastic ideas. Thank you all very much, God Bless

VG



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Steve Hansen

08-29-2000 10:53:26




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 Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to victor, 08-27-2000 22:03:00  
Victor,

I just wired up my shed and pretty much did it the same way as you are going. #6 is the largest UF (underground feed) cable you can get around here. The distance to my shop was about 80'. According to the tables I was looking at 55 amps capacity. Since they do not make a 55 amp breaker, I would have been required to use a 50. However, by upgrading to #4 in conduit I got a full 70 amps of capacity. The upshot, is that #4 in conduit was about the same price as #6 UF.

Unless you need a lot of power a new service does not make a lot of sense. Our monthly service fee here is about $12. The cost of the line to my shop, including trenching, was less than $200. Pay back is less than 2 years and I don't have to look at all of those extra overhead wires.

Good Luck,

Steve

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Dean

08-29-2000 05:54:09




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 Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to victor, 08-27-2000 22:03:00  
Be very careful when talking about wire sizes that you specify either copper or aluminum wire. They are NOT the same. Copper is a much better conductor than aluminum. For example, if the feed requires #6 copper, and you decide to use aluminum, you might have to use the larger #4 wire. In some parts of the country, it is customary to use one or the other. Where I live, either can be used as long as you use the right wire size. And when using aluminum, you MUST use paste on the connections at the box.

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Ray M41

08-28-2000 18:36:47




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 Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to victor, 08-27-2000 22:03:00  
All the responses below are correct. The #6 for a 120/240 volts service is only good for about 60 to 100 feet depending on the anticipated continuous load. You can expect some diversity in this case. The 60 amp fuse switch will be the main and will protect the service, and the 100 amp breaker will act like an unfused disconnect switch. You do need a main at the barn and this will serve the purpose. Be sure to drive a ground rod at the panel and ground the panel chassis and grounding (green) conductors there as well. This should run your lights, small motors, a small 240 volt air compressor, and if you don't run anything else at the same time, a 240 volt crackerbox welder. I have a very similiar setup to my barn and with the diversity I have I have no trouble.
If you are anticipating a heaver load than a separate service drop to the barn is the way to go.
ps, not tooting my horn, I am a master electrician.

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engineer

09-01-2000 08:10:47




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 Re: Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to Ray M41, 08-28-2000 18:36:47  
When you say he needs "a main at the barn" I assume you mean main breaker Where in the NEC does it require a main breaker at the barn??? Why couldn't a main lug load center be used?? Next could he not run a three wire feeder & drive a gounding rod at the barn??



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GLENN NELLIST

09-06-2000 11:13:18




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 Re: Re: Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to engineer, 09-01-2000 08:10:47  
The National Electrical Code requires disconnect switches of some type when a load center is more than a specified distance from the supply or when it is not in "line of sight" from the supply box. This is so you can de-energize the load center at its location and know it is safe.

I had an irrigation pump on one side of my driveway and the electric supply on the other. The inspector made me put a main circuit breaker at the pole where the supply was but didn't require a disconnect across the driveway at the pump because it was within line of sight.

General rule is that you need a disconnect at any load center beyond this specified distance (I can't remember what it is but I think it is about 50 feet) or not within line of sight.

BTW, a 'disconnect' can be a circuit breaker or a fused or unfused switch.

Hope this helps a little.

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Victor

08-28-2000 20:54:24




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 Re: Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to Ray M41, 08-28-2000 18:36:47  
Hi, thanks for the feedback, my shed is about 170 feet from the house, should I use a thicker wire?, Thanks very much,Vic



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Ray M41

08-29-2000 20:02:08




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 Re: Re: Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to Victor, 08-28-2000 20:54:24  
#4 is sufficient. I have in my shop a Lincoln AC 225 welder, a 1/2 hp 240 V water pump, a 1/2 hp 120 V air compressor, and lights. I plug in my drills, drill press, and saws. All this load taking in diversity and the 20% duty rating on the welder totals up to about 45 amps.
My shop is about 60 feet from the house. With 3% voltage drop I am still within the safety margin.
The 5% voltage drop is from the service entrance to the final load. You need to allow 2% just at the service entrance. If this the type of work you will be doing then #4 is sufficient.
For your case I would run 1 1/2" PVC with 2 #4 for the phases, 1 #4 neutral, and 1 #6 ground conductors.
I assume the 60 amp switch is already installed and connected. It should also have the #4 conductors. Working in service entrances is touchy and you shouldn't try this unless you are thoroughly familiar with proceedures in working around this stuff.
You have to also be pretty handy with a trenching machine, gluing PVC, and pulling in the conductors.
I really would get some competent help or let the experts do it for you.
Hope this helps. Good luck and be careful.

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ironhead

08-29-2000 08:09:22




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 Re: Re: Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to Victor, 08-28-2000 20:54:24  
check out this site, Link there is a voltage drop calculater there. You plug in the numbers such as distance amp load and wire size, and it figures the voltage drop. Pluging in your numbers it looks like you need a minumum of #4, or better yet #2 copper



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Dave K

08-28-2000 19:01:52




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 Re: Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to Ray M41, 08-28-2000 18:36:47  
What Ray said is basically correct, however, it is VERY IMPORTANT (as in life safety stuff) to isolate the ground and the neutral at the panel in the barn. This means seperate connection bars for the ground (connected to the ground rod) and the neutral with no interconnetion to the ground at the sub panel.



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TomH

08-31-2000 16:49:05




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 Re: Re: Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to Dave K, 08-28-2000 19:01:52  
Every reference to a subpanel I've read emphasizes that the connection between ground and neutral should only be at the main panel, but I've never understood exactly what causes the danger. Care to enlighten me?



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M.R.

08-31-2000 17:48:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to TomH, 08-31-2000 16:49:05  
The neutral is capabile of carrying any [or the] unbalanced load.



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MarkB

08-28-2000 17:27:17




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 Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to victor, 08-27-2000 22:03:00  
Depending on the inspector, he might have a problem with connecting a 100 amp box to 60 amp service.

Using a 60 amp box, rather than a 100 amp, might prevent a problem at inspection time.

Note that a fussy inspector will check the rating on the box itself, so even if you put in a 60 amp breaker, the inspector could fail you because the box is rated at 100 amps.

Regardless of what you do, make certain that you've used heavy enough wire. The voltage drop over a long run can burn up your power tools over time. 6 ga. is as small as you should go, and I'd probably go with 4 ga.

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Warren

08-28-2000 09:19:35




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 Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to victor, 08-27-2000 22:03:00  
Victor,

Check with your utility company on the cost for them to put in a new service. I did several years ago for a pole barn about 200' from my house. I found out that the utility company would add another service and put in up to 200' feet of underground line from the transformer pole. The only downside is that I have to pay a $5.00 monthly service fee.

If I had run it from my house, it would have been very expensive to purchase the wire and have it buried. Then I would only have about 40 amps at the shed. This way, I have 200 amp service which should be enough for me and will only increase the resale value.

Check it out, it can't hurt to ask and it doesn't cost much either.

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Corey

08-28-2000 07:15:23




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 Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to victor, 08-27-2000 22:03:00  
You didn't mention how long the run was, and if it was going to be underground or overhead. When I rewired the barn, I pulled #2 wire to it, underground for about 200 feet. I have a 100 amp breaker in the house and a 100 amp main in the sub panel in the barn. Put as much power as you can-- you never have all that you need!



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The Red

08-28-2000 07:42:38




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 Re: Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to Corey, 08-28-2000 07:15:23  
Ditto on my settup at the farm. I have a 200 amp breaker box in the farmhouse, then I have 100 going out to the barn and 100 to the shop. I also have 100 mains in those boxes. If I ever move out there and get a tractor driven generator, I will beable to cut off from REMC and engergize from the barn area with the tractor generator settup.



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F14

08-28-2000 03:54:59




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 Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to victor, 08-27-2000 22:03:00  
A licensed electrician wired my garage feed. He put a 50 amp 220 breaker in the main panel, and ran it out to a sub panel in the garage. No main in the sub panel, the 50 in the house panel covers it. I don't remember if he used #6 or #4 for the feed.

You said fuse. Is it actually a fuse, or is it a breaker? In any event, your plan would work, but the 100 amp in the sub panel would just be a switch, as the 60 in the main panel would blow first.

I don't see a problem with your plan, but you should check with a local electrician and the code enforcer to be safe. Your insurance guy might have a word or two on the subject too.

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Biney Morris

02-12-2001 17:33:53




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 Re: Re: wiring a garage/shed in reply to F14, 08-28-2000 03:54:59  
I am wiring an addon to an existing building
the main panel in the shop is a 200amp service
I need to run wires off this panel to a new 100 amp sub panel, im not sure where to come off the existing panel at.



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